Spiritual Evaluation

[K. Sadananda]

>  >but I am sure you also know there are nitya mukta-s even in
>>Dvaita and VishishhTaadvaita schools. Starting from Lakshmi to
>>GaruDa, Narada, Vishvak Seena etc. are Jiiva-s yet nityamukta-s.   In
>>Dvaita school too - they give importance to Lakshmi, and then to
>>Hanuman and then the rest.
>
>Sriman Sadananda Swamin, There is a classification on souls in
>Visisthadvaita. From what adiyen has read and heard from vidwans, is this:
>
>......



>Malolan Cadambi

Thanks Malolan - for  clarification. The pouranics give stories of
birth of Guruda and Narada etc.  Garuda had his own quarrels with his
step-brothers - naaga-s.  Narada is also  upanishadic student
learning from Sanatkumaara-s as means of liberation.  If he is
already a nitya mukta - there is no need for vedantic teaching and
seeking for liberation.  I realize interpretations do differ and I
realize also it becomes a useless pursuit to worry about these
mukta-s rather than concentrating on ones own liberation.  I also
recognize the role of Mahalakshmi in Shreevaishhnavism.  Thanks for
your comments.

Hari Om!
Sadananda
--
K. Sadananda
Code 6323
Naval Research Laboratory
Washington D.C. 20375
Voice (202)767-2117
Fax:(202)767-2623

>From  Fri Nov 30 08:02:39 2001
Message-Id: <FRI.30.NOV.2001.080239.0700.>
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 08:02:39 -0700
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To: List for advaita vedanta as taught by Shri Shankara
        <ADVAITA-L at LISTS.ADVAITA-VEDANTA.ORG>
From: Prasad Balasubramanian <besprasad at LYCOS.COM>
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Subject: Re: Freewill
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Namaskaram,
      Thank you for the explanation. I have a few more questions.

      Lets consider the same example of burying a treasure in the past life and trying to dig up in this life. What if the person who is digging up now , had buried it by exercising his free will in the wrong direction ?  Say, he had acquired the treasure by improper means and wanted to bury it. In that case, why should his digging up in this Jenma forever and for whatever depth, should lead him to the treasure ? If he gets it, then, is it not something that shouldnt happen has happened ? I'm not clear under what conditions this person's, who had buried it with bad intentions, getting the treasure in this jenma or any future jenma will be considered OK.

shree guruByo namaH
Prasad


Namaskaram.
 Let me try and give your my understanding ...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Prasad Balasubramanian" <besprasad at LYCOS.COM>

> IF A HUMAN BEING IS NOT DESTINED to get a fruit (at  present),because of
his
> exercising his free will in the other/wrong direction in the past(fate),
how can and why should repeated attempts
> of exercising the free will in the right direction at present with much
more vigor  bear him the fruit ?

I think you are missing the point ... let me give you an analogy to see if
it will clarify. Consider the act you commited in the past as burying a
treasure under the ground. It was quite deep, but since it is in the past
and we cannot remember the past lives, we do not know how deep. In the
present time, we are trying to dig the treasure up by exercising our free
will. We dig 10 feet and still cannot find it. We are finding the digging to
be very difficult work and so we begin to think
(a) there is no treasure to be found
and/or
(b) we are destined to not get the treasure.

 HH is saying both (a) and (b) are wrong. We buried the treasure quite deep
to begin with. We exercised free will in the past in the direction of
burying it out of sight. We must now, in the present, exercise at least as
much "effort" or free will now as we did in the past, to make the treasure
visible again. The treasure is there. And it is certainly within reach. The
repeated attempts refers to not giving up after the first attempt of digging
just 10 feet. If we have not found it in 10 feet, it only means that we
exerted effort in the past to make it deeper than 10 feet.
Also, if in the present life you did not get it, then bear in mind that the
10 feet you have dug in this life will still be there. In your next life you
don't start from scratch. That is what our shastras say. You will start in
your next life from where you left off ... whether you choose to dig further
in the gorund for the treasure ("positive" action) or to cover it up again
("negative" action) is a choice you make.

> Will it not contradict the karma theory - that if one did something wrong
in the past ,
> one has to face the reaction of it now ? If his past actions were in such
a way that he
> should not  get the fruit at present, then the number of attempts and how
vigorous each
> attempt is, shouldnt matter at all.

This does not contradict "karma theory" if you can call it that. This is the
point that HH is making - there is no "destiny" that prevents you from
getting to what you want. There is NO invisible noose around a person's neck
**other than what the person has put on himself**. If you pulled really hard
(in the past), it begins to suffocate you now. The suffereing and
breathlessness you feel now is because of that.

> If his exercising the freewill at present with repeated attempts bears the
fruit, then,
> can the possible failures in the first few attempts be considered as
praayaschitha
> (that he might not even be aware of ) for that past karma ? So that
further attempts will
> be considered for bearing him the fruit ?

 It is an interesting point you bring up. In a discourse, Sri Anantarama
Dikshidhar says that the shastras instruct us to do prayaschittam as soon as
we are aware of any mistake we have made. If not, the amount of
prayaschittam needed later will be sort of "more" than what we would do if
it were now. As an analogy in this respect, he says money borrowed from a
bank, even though small, will have associated interests that have to be
paid - pay it soon and the amount we finally pay is small. Pay it over a
long period of time, and the interest payments will just keep growing more
and more. So also with good deeds done. The reason why even truely virtuous
people are born in this world and keeping enjoying good things is because
they did good deeds in the past, sort of a small investment which with time
grows into a huge return. It is like the banker who will seek out the
children of a dead man to give them the money deposited by the father. So
also here ... But Sri Anantharama Dikshidhar cautions that one must not out
of fear for rewards stop doing good things. There is a tendency in the
spritual aspirant to start thinking that when the "karmic bank balance" is
nullified, he will be "set free". That zero balance state cannot be acheived
by stopping the doing of good deeds now in the hope that when the bad debt
is wiped out we will be free. Man can never stop acting, and if he stops
action of a good kind, the only things he will do is to do actions of the
bad kind, and that will only make things worse. The solution is to do
actions, as best as we can, for the benefit of all, but train the mind to
think of it as action done as a service. For example, if  you the
representative of the bank, and you go to the house of a man and give him a
lot of money,  you (the bank representative) must know that the money you
are giving is never yours, but the man's always - it was never yours to
give. So also with us. All this world and the riches and treasures in it
belongs to God always. We must act with this sense (or frame) of mind. This
will absolve us of any karmic effects of givng the man any money.
 To come back to your original question of is the "extra" effort
"prayaschittam" - may be it is! Or may be it is just interest payed on a
delayed prayaschittam!! Let us not get caught up in semantics here. As HH
has said (in a separate article) - we are all in a burning house with the
fire all aorund us and consuming us. Let us try to get out of it and not
question where the fire started from or how much effort to make to put the
fire out. The fire cannot be put out. Surrender to Him, who will get you out
of it. Our only recourse to get out of this is our Guru.

bhava shankara desikame sharaNam
Vaidya.



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>From vaidya_narayanan at yahoo.com Sat Dec  1 23:51:29 2001
Message-Id: <SAT.1.DEC.2001.235129.0900.VAIDYANARAYANAN at YAHOO.COM>
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 23:51:29 +0900
Reply-To: Vaidya Sundaram <vaidya_narayanan at yahoo.com>
To: List for advaita vedanta as taught by Shri Shankara
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From: Vaidya Sundaram <vaidya_narayanan at YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Freewill
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Namaskaram.
 I am not sure I can venture into explaining karma and morality vis-a-vis
the notion of free will. Here is an attempt, which you have take with
caution, for I  do not know much about  this.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Prasad Balasubramanian" <besprasad at LYCOS.COM>

> Lets consider the same example of burying a treasure in the past life and
> trying to dig up in this life. What if the person who is digging up now ,
> had buried it by exercising his free will in the wrong direction ?  Say,
he
> had acquired the treasure by improper means and wanted to bury it.
> In that case, why should his digging up in this Jenma forever and for
> whatever depth, should lead him to the treasure ?

There are two aspects to the origianl subject - (a) exerting free will and
not succumbing to laziness under the guise of "destiny" (b) following dharma
at all times. You seem to be confusing one with the other ... at every
point, at every signle second in this life, we have a choice and we can
always make a conscious choice to either follow dharma and do the right
thing, or not follow dharma ... In your example, who asked you dig? no one
asked you to dig for a fortune!! It is your choice now, **without prior
knowledge of a bad or good act of burying the same** The choice of action is
yours. You, using dharma as a guideline and desire as a foundation, started
to venture out and do some action with a view to the reward or result ...
Even when something does not belong to you, and is well guarded, you can
still, with lots of effort, steal it and go against dharma; but that's not
the main theme here, is it? If right now you know something is dharmic and
you are expected to do it, do not forsake it; exert yourself to do it; if
dharma forbids it, refrain from doing it; purva janma vasanas may prompt you
to doing the adharmic act (or prompt to not not act in the case of required
action); exert action in the opposite direction to overcome the natural
tendencies.

In this regard, refer Bhagavad Gita 16.24 (emphasis with ** are mine)
16.24 Therefore, let the **scripture**  be thy authority in determining what
ought to be done and what ought not to be done. Having known what is said in
the ordinance of the scriptures, **thou shouldst act here in this world**.
Commentary (of Swami Sivananda) : He who desires the welfare of the Self
should not disregard the commands of the scriptures. A man who is anxious to
obtain eternal bliss should respect the Vedas and the Smritis which lay down
the code of right conduct. He should readily renounce whatever the
scriptures teach him to abandon and accept whatever he is directed to
accept.
He who is thus entirely devoted to the Vedas cannot meet with misfortune,
grief or delusion. No mother is more kind than the scriptures for they
restrain us from doing evil and bestow on us the greatest good (liberation
of Moksha). Therefore treat the scriptures with great respect. Renounce all
that the scriptures prohibit. Whatever is worthy of being done, that thou
shouldst do thoroughly with all thy heart and all they strength.

> If he gets it, then, is it
> not something that shouldnt happen has happened ? I'm not clear under
> what conditions this person's, who had buried it with bad intentions,
getting
> the treasure in this jenma or any future jenma will be considered OK.

Nothing, in a practical sense for us, should be considered as "should
happen" or "should not happen" - if we think so, it becomes an overriding
concern and we will fall prey to the notion of "destiny". However, in a
totally philosophical sense, and high level abstractions, if a thing should
not happen, then it will NOT happen; if something must happen, it WILL
happen - I believe Ramana maharishi has also commented on this.

bhava shankara desikame sharaNam
Vaidya.



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