[Advaita-l] Disccussion on Free-will

[Mahesh Ursekar]

Pranams Sadananda-ji!

You write:

>>all actions are done by the prakRiti alone

Using the term prakRiti in Advaita is rather tricky since it brings to mind
the Sankhyan prakRiti which is jada & an ultimate reality like purusha.
Further, being jada, it cannot act *alone* but only by samyog with Purusha.
In any case, if we assume this principle for now, then when you write:

>> Neither jnaani nor ajnaani really acts.
and
>> Otherwise there is no difference between jnaani and ajnaani. Neither one
is really a doer at >> any time.

If there cannot be an ownership of action by either the jnaani or ajnaani
then it implies that prakRiti, representing everything in the Universe
(sentient & insentient), acts as one unified whole. What causes it to act?
Purusha or Brahman. Individual action then is a myth. Which, oddly enough,
supports my position that individual 'free will' is an illusion. It is
universal, all pervading prakriti that is causing you & me to act but due to
delusion, we think we act out of our own free will. Or, in Sri Ramakrishna's
words, the Mother is the one that causes you & me to act.

Unless, my reasoning is flawed somehwere...

>> By the by, did you see my mail on the list serve or in archieves? For
some reason I do not >> get my posts, I have to ask Shree Jaldhar or Shree
Vidya.

I think it is best to check with Shree Jaldhar or Shree Vidya.

Thanks, Mahesh


On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 4:55 AM, kuntimaddi sadananda <
kuntimaddisada at yahoo.com> wrote:

>
> Maheshji - PraNAms
>
> Krishna answered your question.
>
> Neither jnaani nor ajnaani really acts.
>
> PrakRityaivaca karmaani kriyamaanaani sarvashaH
> yaH pasyati tathaatmaanam akartaaramsa pasyati||
>
> all actions are done by the prakRiti alone. One who sees that clearly and
> recognizes that he is and was never an actor alone clearly sees. The
> anjnaani thinks that he is the one who is doer and because of that kartRitva
> bhaava he reeps the results and suffers.
>
> In the 5th chapter Krishna says
> naiva kinchit  karomiiti yuktomanyeta tatvavit
> pasyan shRinvan spRishan jighran ashnan gacchan svapan svapan
>
> ..........
> .......
> indriyaNiidriyaartheshu vartante iti dhaarayan|
>
> Actions will go on by jnaanedriayas and karmendriays for both the jnaani
> and ajnaani.
>
> One knows that I am the substantive of all- and in my presence prakRiti is
> acting. All manifestations of prakRiti becomes vibhuuti.
>
> For anjaani, he has the notion that I am a doer and enjoyer due to the lack
> of correct knowledge.
>
> In Sad darshanam Bhagavaan Ramana addresses these in sloka 19 and 20.  From
> the point of physical body etc there is no difference between jnaani and
> ajnaani. Hence vedanta does not address the physical problems. Vedanta
> addresses the psychological problems associated with the physical problems -
> that is what is called samsaara. A child may have a physical problem due to
> ill health. Mother may go through psychological problems because of her
> attachment to the child. Concern for the welfare of  the child is different
> from worry about the welfare of the child. Gitopadesha starts because of
> Arjuna's psychological problems. Otherwise there is no difference between
> jnaani and ajnaani. Neither one is really a doer at any time. The whole
> adhyaasa bhaashya of Shankara starts with this.
>
> By the by, did you see my mail on the list serve or in archieves? For some
> reason I do not get my posts, I have to ask Shree Jaldhar or Shree Vidya.
>
> Hari Om!
>
>
>
>
>
> --- On Thu, 5/21/09, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> > From: Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya at yahoo.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Disccussion on Free-will
> > To: "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta" <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> > Date: Thursday, May 21, 2009, 6:26 PM
> > Dear Maheshji,
> >
> > You have asked a pertinent question, which I think Adi
> > Sankaracharya replied to long ago. The self-realised, who is
> > yet to become Videhamukta, do act and is a living person
> > but the quality of his action is Sattvic and not in
> > individual-self-interest. If you turn the heater off do the
> > coils cool down instantly? Did not Lord Buddha talk after
> > his awakening? Did not Lord Krishna Himself talk?
> >
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya
> >
> > --- On Thu, 5/21/09, Mahesh Ursekar <mahesh.ursekar at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: Mahesh Ursekar <mahesh.ursekar at gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Disccussion on Free-will
> > To: "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta" <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> > Date: Thursday, May 21, 2009, 7:19 AM
> >
> >
> > Pranams Sadananda-ji!
> >
> > I am in agreement with your position that a Master answers
> > an individual's
> > questions are based on the individual's spiritual
> > development. It is fairly
> > well know that the Buddha, on being asked if God existed,
> > by two different
> > persons, replied Yes to the first and No to the second.
> >
> > However, that does not mean that I abandon my position, the
> > reason for which
> > is given in another thread. And on a less important note,
> > one does not know
> > how advanced the below disciple was & so one can't
> > discount the answer
> > completely.
> >
> > I would like to pose one more question to you which may
> > appear to veer away
> > from the original topic but then maybe not: You write:
> >
> > >> I am never a doer or enjoyer.
> >
> > In the case of a self-realized person, who is the doer?
> > When I see him or
> > her act in the world  - who is it who walks, talks,
> > sleeps, laughs? Who is
> > that who answers the question put by the disciple?
> >
> > Thanks, Mahesh
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 4:30 PM, kuntimaddi sadananda <
> > kuntimaddisada at yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > PraNams to all
> > >
> > > First I am not sure why I did not see my post directly
> > other than
> > > referenced by Shree Maheshji and then by others
> > although it was there in the
> > > archives list. The same problem I had with my previous
> > post too.
> > >
> > > Anyway - Shree Maheshji - I give importance to only
> > the texts - Upadesha
> > > saara and Sad darshaNam of Bhagavaan Ramana since most
> > of other talks are
> > > conversations and the answers more relevant to the
> > questioner than for
> > > general audience. Those are custom made depending on
> > the student who is
> > > asking the question and his background. While the
> > books are for the audience
> > > at large. The talks have to be understood from the
> > contextual point. This is
> > > only my opinion.
> > >
> > >
> > > The point that was made by Bhagavan Ramana in the
> > sloka is that free will
> > > is there to deal with the situation that one is facing
> > and the situation
> > > that one is facing is due to past actions. Hence what
> > I have is destiny, and
> > > what I do with what I have is purushaartha. This is
> > the beginning-less
> > > cycle. Both arise due to ignorance which is anaadi.
> > These go together only
> > > because there is katRitva bhaava that is  I am kartaa
> > notion is there. That
> > > is only a notion, and therefore both what I have and
> > what I do with what I
> > > have, both are result of the basic notion that I am a
> > doer. That very
> > > conclusion is the essence of the problem and arises
> > due to lack of
> > > substantive knowledge that - akartaaham abhoktaaham,
> > ahamevaaham avyayaH. I
> > > am never a doer or enjoyer.
> > >
> > > The rest of the discussion is not much relevant to
> > me.
> > >
> > > Hari Om!
> > > Sadananda
> > >
> > >
> > > --- On Wed, 5/20/09, Sunil Bhattacharjya <
> sunil_bhattacharjya at yahoo.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > From: Mahesh Ursekar <mahesh.ursekar at gmail.com>
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > PraNAms to all
> > > > >
> > > > > Interestingly this topic keeps coming back
> > again and
> > > > again and appearing in
> > > > > the both the lists at this time.
> > > > >
> > > > > I am not going to discuss this issue - other
> > than
> > > > restate a statement I
> > > > > have made before: Free will is there until I
> > am free
> > > > from will.
> > > > >
> > > > > Here is a beautiful sloka from Bhagavaan
> > Ramana in Sat
> > > > DarShaNam in the
> > > > > text we are taking in the coming Memorial
> > Day weekend
> > > > camp, related to this
> > > > > topic, and it may be of interest to some. He
> > says, as
> > > > always in his
> > > > > characteristic style of brevity:
> > > > >
> > > > > vidheH prayatnasya ca ko2pivaadaH
> > > > > tayor dvayor muulamajaanataam syaat|
> > > > > vidheH prayatnasya ca muulavastu
> > > > > sanjaanataam naiva vidhirna yatnaH|| - sloka
> > 21
> > > > >
> > > > > Vidhi stands for fate and prayatna stands
> > for
> > > > freewill. He says the debate
> > > > > of fate and freewill is a universal and
> > unending
> > > > debate. Some say it is fate
> > > > > and some say it is freewill that controls.
> > Efforts
> > > > determine our fate and
> > > > > fate determines your freewill. What I have
> > is fate and
> > > > what I do with what I
> > > > > have is free will. I have at anytime these
> > two things
> > > > simultaneously since I
> > > > > have no choice but to choose - kartum
> > shakyam akarturm
> > > > shakyam, anyathaa
> > > > > kartum shakyam - to do, not to do or to do
> > another way
> > > > - these choice-less
> > > > > choices is there because of the present
> > situation to
> > > > deal with due my fate.
> > > > > At any time I am faced with these two. Now
> > which comes
> > > > first - is it fate or
> > > > > free will. That question is invalid because
> > the
> > > > ignorance is anaadi -
> > > > > beginning less. The birth, sustenance and
> > death are
> > > > cyclic and no beginning
> > > > > and no end until I get out of this punarapi
> > jananam
> > > > punarapi maranam cycle.
> > > > > How do I get out of it?
> > > > >
> > > > > Bhagavaan Ramana says -this discussion is
> > there only
> > > > because one does not
> > > > > understand - tayor dvayoH muulam - here
> > moolam is the
> > > > adhiShTaanam or the
> > > > > substantive of both the freewill and the
> > fate - both
> > > > arise with the notion
> > > > > of ahankaara - the notion that I am an
> > individual
> > > > separate from the jagat
> > > > > the universe and hence separate from Iswara,
> > the
> > > > creator of this universe.
> > > > >
> > > > > Hence Bhagavaan recommends not to indulge in
> > this
> > > > useless discussion of is
> > > > > it freewill or fate which is final, what is
> > final is
> > > > the substantive of both
> > > > > - the very existence-consciousness that I am
> > - where
> > > > both jiiva, jagat and
> > > > > Iswara resolve into one and where both
> > freewill and
> > > > fate get transcended.
> > > > >
> > > > > Hence he says, vidheH prayatnasya ca
> > muulavastu
> > > > samjaanataam - for those
> > > > > who know the substantive of both the fate
> > and free
> > > > will - the very
> > > > > existence-consciousness because of which
> > both seems to
> > > > exist and because of
> > > > > which one is aware of both, that muula vastu
> > or that
> > > > absolute reality - one
> > > > > who knows that for him naiva vidhiH na
> > yatnaH - there
> > > > is no freewill or
> > > > > fate.
> > > > >
> > > > > A beautiful teaching indeed. My prostrations
> > to that
> > > > sage of Arunaachala.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Hari Om!
> > > > > Sadananda
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
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