[Advaita-l] Pramana for adhyaropa apavada

Rajaram Venkataramani rajaramvenk at gmail.com
Sat May 11 07:15:45 CDT 2013


VS: Vedanta teaches us that only the kShetram, the product of prakRti, can
be the bhogyam. The Consciousness principle can never be the bhogyam. When
two persons love each other, they love one or the other manifestation
of kShetram like the body, the mind, the intellect, etc. which are the
seats of the beauty, intelligence, caliber, etc. Only these can be seen and
experienced and appreciated in another. The sentience part which is the
Consciousness, is not an object at all.

RV: On the contrary, it is the conscious being that one loves. Even the
most beloved person's body is offered back to the elements once the life
departs.  All material objects are spent on a person only until life
exists. The lord sports with jivas and does not think the latter is
different from the Self.

VS:   If it is said it is a pastime for the Lord, such concepts are outside
the purview of serious vedanta vichAra. Those ideas might be helpful in
giving one increased saguna bhakti and chitta shuddhi. As Swami
Paramarthananda says: Such
practices are a good starting point but can't be the ending point.

RV: 2.1.33   loka-vat tu lIlA-kaivalyam is part of the most serious vedanta
vichara known to anyone. Swami Paramarthananda may be a great and a scholar
but even he is not inerroneous. For example, his view that gopis are not
jnanis is directly in contradiction to what Madhusudana says that they are
the topmost jnanis. If Swami Paramarthananda says that bhagavat bhakti is a
starting point and not the end goal, then he should specify based on
sastras at what stage one should give up bhagavat bhakti. Even a jnani is
merely a type of bhakta (catur vidhe bhajante maam). Madhsudana explains
that bhagavat bhakti is not given up by even jivan muktas (and goes on to
say that it is eternal).
VS:  In that body itself the hand does not pervade the legs and the legs do
not pervade the head. Even mAyA cannot make such a figure possible. If you
can conceive of one, Long Live Thee!!  The aprAkRtam is still within
prakRti alone. That is what I have been told that Madhusudana has said in
the Advaita siddhi. The Rule is: any formed object can be only within
prakRti;

RV: If you agree with Madhusudana that His form is mayika and not made of
five elements, you cannot superimpose the limitation of forms in spatial
realm on that of Ishwara's eternal forms. Madhusudana takes pains to
explain that His form is not made of gross or subtle elements. By
definition, nothing is impossible for maya. If we have to reject concepts
that we cannot conceive of with our mind, we are allowing ourselves to be
limited by the limitations of our mind.


On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 10:24 AM, V Subrahmanian
<v.subrahmanian at gmail.com>wrote:

> On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 12:50 PM, Rajaram Venkataramani <
> rajaramvenk at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > >
> > > If the jiva is bhogyam, it is jaDa and this is contradictory to the
> > > upanishad.  And if the Lord is dependent on the jaDa jiva for his
> bhoga,
> > He
> > > is no longer nityatRpta; He will be another samsAri who looks for
> > something
> > > outside of him to remain sated. This is the consequence of having a
> jiva
> > > that is different from the Lord.
> >
> >
> > RV: we see two sentient beings love each other in this world and enjoy
> each
> > other's love. neither of them become insentient because of being an
> object
> > of enjoyment. what is the logic in saying that a jiva will be jada if he
> is
> > enjoyed by the lord.
>
>
> Vedanta teaches us that only the kShetram, the product of prakRti, can be
> the bhogyam.  The Consciousness principle can never be the bhogyam.  When
> two persons love each other, they love one or the other manifestation of
> kShetram like the body, the mind, the intellect, etc. which are the seats
> of the beauty, intelligence, caliber, etc.  Only these can be seen and
> experienced and appreciated in another.  The sentience part  which is the
> Consciousness, is not an object at all.  The upanishad says: na tatra sUryo
> bhAti....tasya bhAsA sarvam idam vibhAti  [Nothing can illumine That by
> which alone everything else is illumined], The kenopanishad says:  It
> enlivens all instruments but no instrument  can know/illumine It.  The
> Br.Up. teaches that only one's Self is the dearest of all.  So, the goal of
> the aspirant is to realize his self which can never be an object.  All else
> is not-self and jaDa.  BhagavAn is pUrNakAmaH.  The jnAni is AptakAmaH.
>
>
> If the jiva is absolutely different from the Lord, then there is a defect
> > of the Lord being dependent on some thing other than Him for bliss but if
> > the Lord uses His eternal energies for His enjoyment, then He is self
> > satisfied. Is it not?
> >
>
> Any enjoyment will require the tripuTee consisting of enjoyer, enjoyed and
> the instruments.  If it is said that all these three are the Lord Himself
> then it is like the dream creation example of advaita and subject to end,
> since there is the dreamer/creator of this triputee who is the
> adhiShThaanam of this triad. All energies of Brahman are either world or
> jiva centric.  If the Lord is different from bliss then there is the need
> for seeking something else for enjoying the bliss.  If He is Bliss Himself
> there is no need for Him to use his energies.  If it is said it is a
> pastime for the Lord, such concepts are outside the purview of serious
> Vedanta vichAra.  Those ideas might be helpful in giving one increased
> saguna bhakti and chitta shuddhi.  As Swami Paramarthananda says: Such
> practices are a good starting point but can't be the ending point.
>
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Even though mAyAshakti is beyond space and time, the mAyAkAryam,
> products
> > > of mAyA, are surely within the gamut of space and time.  Maya cannot,
> by
> > > rule, create anything that defies this law.
> > >
> > > RV: maya by definition can make the impossible possible. Where is the
> law
> > that says maya cannot produce a form beyond space and time?
>
>
> It is only upon encountering such a form can one say that there is such a
> form.  But as the Acharya explained, a mUrti concept cannot fit this
> definition.  That is why in the Upanishads  'sat/satyam' is specified as
> mUrtadravyam, available for perception being formed objects and tyat as
> amurta dravyam with no form and therefore cannot be seen.  In a mUrti the
> space between two shoulders and the head is not still the shoulder and
> head, it is empty space.  That will not form part of the murti.   That is
> why it is said the Lingam is a representative of all possible forms.  If we
> have a human type figure it is impossible to say that it pervades all.  In
> that body itself the hand does not pervade the legs and the legs do not
> pervade the head.  Even mAyA cannot make such a figure possible.  If you
> can conceive of one, Long Live Thee!!
>
>
> > Leave alone the Upanishads, even Madhusudana says that the Lotd's eternal
> > form is not made of pancha bhutas, which includes space. Sankara also
> says
> > it is aprakrtam.
> >
>
> I have addressed this before.  The aprAkRtam is still within prakRti alone.
> That is what I have been told that Madhusudana has said in the Advaita
> siddhi. The Rule is: any formed object can be only within prakRti;
> Consciousness can never take a form unless it depends on prakRti.  Bhagavan
> says in the Gita: sambhavAmi Atma mAyayA. A complete study of the Bh.Gita
> and the upanishad bhashyam will make this clear.  Till such time there will
> be endless questions and doubts.
>
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