[Advaita-l] Omniscience, etc. only due to upAdhi

[H S Chandramouli]

H S Chandramouli

Dear Sri Bhaskarji,

You write

< So, in short, turiya is
vishva, tejasa, prAjna but vishva tejasa & prAjna are not turiya.  >

Should it not be the other way round.

Regards

<


On Tue, Jan 7, 2014 at 3:25 PM, Bhaskar YR <bhaskar.yr at in.abb.com> wrote:

> praNAms Sri Subbu prabhuji
> Hare Krishna
>
> Just sharing my thoughts on one of your old mails :
>
> > >  but Ishwara is NOT different from brahman and if we are ready to
> accept
> > Ishwara is sarvajna, I am not able to understand why not brahman?? Does
> > parabrahman is inferior to Ishwara since he is lacking these
> qualities??!!
> >
>
>
> Whether we like it or not, the mAnDUkya places Turiya (seventh mantra
> nAntaH prajnam..prapanchopashamam..) 'above' Ishwara (sixth mantra:
> sarveshwara, sarvajna, antaryAmi...).  Pl. read the bhAShya there.
>
>
> >  I failed to see which bhAshya vAkya here that gives us the impression
> that there is something 'above' and 'below' Ishwara.  Yes, it is said that
> prAjna (please note which is upAdhi rahita ) in sushupti is sarveshwara,
> sarvajna.  Here this sarvajnatva attributed to jeeva's sushupti sthAna
> without the help of any upAdhi.   As you know absence of vishesha darshana
> (like in jAgrat & svapna) is due to ekeebhUta of these karaNa-s in Atman.
> tad etasmin kAle ekeebhutaM, AtmanaH pareNa parishvanjAt ....tena na
> pruthaktvena vyavasthitAni karaNAni vishayAscha, 'tadabhAvAt'
> visheshadarshanaM nAsti.  Here point to be noted is despite there is an
> absence of vishesha darshanaM, despite the fact that in this state is
> without upAdhi-s (sarvOpAdhivinirmukta)  prAjna has been called as
> vishesha jnAna rahita prajnAna ghana who is also sarveshwara, sarvajna
> (esha sarvEshwara, esha sarvajna, eshOntarmi esha yOniH sarvasya
> prabhAvApyayau hi bhUtAnAm. So, IMHO, it would rather supports that Atman
> is sarvajna without any aid of upAdhi.  And now the turiya which you think
> is 'above' Ishwara and not Ishwara but brahman!!  Here we should
> understand turiya is not a separate state aloof from the first three
> pAda-s.  Though vaishvAnara Atman sees the world in jAgrat,
> recalls/recollects as taijasa, remains sarveshwara in prAjnAvasthA all
> turiya is inherently vyApaka in all these three states.  sOyamAtma
> chatushpAt (Man-2) does not mean it is like a forth leg of a cow (gOpAda)
> it is its forth pAda which pervades & completes the other three pAda-s as
> well..Turiya is his svarUpa which is nAntaH prajna ( not taijasa) etc. but
> there can exist nothing apart from this turiya.  So, in short, turiya is
> vishva, tejasa, prAjna but vishva tejasa & prAjna are not turiya.  This is
> what krishna says in geeta : matshAni sarva bhUtAni, na cha matshAni
> bhUtAni.
>
>
>
> > OTOH, I would say,  brahman's potence (shakti) which is inherent like
> > existence and jnAnaM will be active through upAdhi in srushti kriya.
> > Hence, we call the parabrahman itself as sOpAdhika brahman or saguNa
> > brahman to denote chetanatva behind srushti.  If we argue parabrahman is
> > minus sarvashaktitvaM and sarvajnatvaM we are restricting the parabrahma
> > tattva and implying that parabrahman would get sarvashaktitvaM and
> > sarvajnatvaM from jadOpAdhi then become Ishwara!!.
> >
>
> It is exactly this Shankara has stated in the IkShatyadhikaraNa:  without
> that shakti Brahman can do nothing.
>
>
> >  and that shakti is not a borrowed one from mAyOpAdhi it is inherent in
> IT and ananya from IT,  gets projected only through the medium like
> mAyOpAdhi.
>
> Therefore this shakti is admitted as subordinate.
>
> >  mAya is brahmAdheena not his inherent power.  See ArambhaNAdhikaraNa
> sUtra bhAshya 2-1-18 and geeta bhAshya on guNatraya vibhAga yOga for
> example.
>
> Satyam Jnanam anantam Anandam are not subordinates; they are
> the very svarUpa of brahman.
>
> >  yes, this very svarUpa of brahman shows that brahman will always be
> endowed with shakti & jnAna and get the prefix 'sarva' whenever 'creation'
> taken into account.
>
> >
> >
> > While attributing sarvajnatvaM, sarvashaktitvaM etc. to Brahman we see
> > these as taTasthalakShaNa and not svarUpalakShaNa.  'Inherent' means
> > svarUpa.
> >
> > >  Yes, brahman's svarUpa is omnipotence, omniscience no matter whether
> > 'omni' is there or not !!  And this inherent shaktitva will be displayed
> > through upAdhi in srushtikriya (creation) and karma phala distribution
> > etc. ekO devaH sarva bhUteshu gUdAH...kevalO nirhuNascha
> > ....shvetAshvatara. Just like consciousness is the nature (svarUpa /
> > svabhAva) of brahman shakti, knowledge etc. are the nature of brahman.
> >
>
>
> The first casualty of the above thinking is the teaching of 'tat tvam asi,
> aham brahmAsmi' etc.  The jIva can never identify itself with omniscience,
> etc.  This is the basis for bhAga-tyAga lakShaNA in understanding the
> mahAvAkyas.
>
> >  jeeva never thinks that he is sarveshwara, sarvashakta when he is in
> sushupti!! does he?? After the dawn of svarUpa jnAna, jnAni would realize
> that before the jnAna there was a source which was doing srushti, sthiti
> etc. but NOW that source is nothing but Atman.  prAk sadAtmavijnAnAt
> svAtmanOnyasyAt sataH praNAdernAmAntasya utpatti pralayau abhUtaM, sadAtma
> vijnAne tu sati idAneeM sva Atmata eva saMvruttaU, tathA sarvOpyanyO
> vyavahAraH Atmana eva vidushaH says shankara in chAdOgya.  So, jnAni does
> not do the creation etc. because he knows the limitation of his upAdhi-s
> and that of Ishwara and leave this job to Ishwara only and he knows that
> what is there in Ishwara and what is there with him is ONE and the SAME.
>
>
>
> > jnAna, shakti, Ishitavya etc. are the nature (inherent) of para brahman
> > and parabrahman's these inherent nature is not borrowed one from upAdhi
> > when he becomes Ishwara (sOpAdhika).  To distinguish the difference
> > between shakti and shaktimAn, jnAna and jnAnavAn etc, the upAdhi-s have
> > been introduced and it does not anyway mean after getting upAdhi
> > brahman/Ishwara  would get the power  of sarvajnatvaM and
> sarvashaktitvaM.
> >
>
> Ishwara is anAdi.  So omniscience, etc. are upAdhis that exist in Ishwara.
> Without these upAdhis is the nature of Turiya.
>
> >  Yes, upAdhi rahita turiya's nature is not devoid of jnAnaM and
> anantatvaM and upAdhi sahita Ishwara is the creator with his sarveshwara
> and sarvashakti gUna saMpannata.  Just like sUrya has the prakAsha as his
> nature so brahman without the aid of any external source has the svabhAva
> of sarvajnatva and with this nature only he 'first' thinks let me become
> 'many'.  So, jnAna of 'many' (sarva) is inherent in eka eva Atma says
> Itareya shruti and shankara continues to say how this eka Atma become many
> or created many without the help of any 'karaNa' (upAdhi).
>
>
> If there is no creation, there won't be Ishwara Himself!!
>
> >  It is as good as saying if there is no ring there wont be any gold !!
> No Ishwara means no creation, but saying no creation means no Ishwara is
> like saying no mumukshu means no brahma :-))
>
>
>
> > Hence, IMO, shakti, jnAna, consciounsness etc. are svarUpa lakshaNa (
> not
> > tatastha lakshaNa which is temporary)  of parabrahman which would get
> > projected through upAdhi in srushti and with upAdhi (sOpAdhika) the same
> > parabrahman is called saguNa, sOpAdhika, kArya brahma.
> >
>
> Yes. It is the same rope that appears as snake.  Only that, while getting
> to know the rope one would not insist that snakehood is also inherent in
> rope.
>
> >  we are talking about the tAdAtmya saMbandha of rope and snake...we dont
> see the pot or chair in place of rope we see something which has the
> sameepa lakshaNa of rope like snake, or crack on the floor or garland. The
> kArya jagat has this sAdrushya with kAraNa brahman.  and kAraNa does not
> create altogether a new one which is not there already in kAraNa is it
> not??  sarvAtma bhAva or Atmaikatva jnAna or samyak jnAna of the jnAni
> would see this sAmAnya behind all these vishesha-s.
>
>
> Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
> bhaskar
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