[Advaita-l] avidya is Agantuka

[H S Chandramouli]

Sri Ravi Kiran Ji,

Reg  <<  is it fair to say that -

in the state of सुषुप्ति, when the (realized) Jiva is directly in
association solely with the Atman, it will continue to know  its
identity with the Atman, since there is no longer आवरण ( ignorance of one's
own true
nature ) caused by अविद्या, as it was destroyed by the realization in जाग्रत्
(waking) ?

In that case, such a jIva upon waking up from deep sleep  should mention
that It
continued to have Self-knowledge (Atma jnAna) during सुषुप्ति ? >>,

whether  अविद्या persists during waking state after Atma jnAna is itself an
issue of considerable debate amongst advaitins, let alone during  सुषुप्ति.
The issue is the subject matter of another thread currently active in this
Forum itself. Best to look for answers there. However for your information,
there is a review of various views expressed by advaitins on this issue
available in the book on Vedanta Paribhasha translated by Sri Suryanarayana
Shastri under the topic of Jivanmukti in the Notes section.

Regards




On Thu, Jan 14, 2016 at 9:17 PM, Ravi Kiran <ravikiranm108 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Sri Chandramouli Ji,
>
> Pl see clarification below:
>
> On Thu, Jan 14, 2016 at 6:34 PM, H S Chandramouli via Advaita-l <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>
>> Sri Venkatrghavan Ji,
>>
>>
>>
>>  Sri Subrahmanian Ji has clarified that विक्षेप is what is meant in his
>> post. I will continue with the justification for my stand ( quote from a
>> previous post )  <<  This is the अभिव्यक्त अविद्या which is अनर्थहेतु
>> because
>> this ignorance of one's own true nature is the fundamental cause of all
>> samsara >>.
>>
>>
>>
>>  In the illustration of the rope-serpent, which is the अनर्थहेतु ??
>> Rope-serpent or the ignorance of rope ?? Rope-serpent  is the अनर्थ and
>> ignorance of the rope is the अनर्थहेतु. Why ?? Because the अनर्थ of
>> rope-serpent can be removed only by the removal of its cause ( अनर्थहेतु )
>> which is ignorance of the rope. Just because rope-serpent is manifest and
>> causes fear etc directly, it is not termed अनर्थहेतु. Same is the case
>> with
>> what is under discussion. 'tattva apratibodha' (तत्वअप्रतिबोध ignorance of
>> the True Nature of the Self, same as आवरण an aspect of अविद्या)   being
>> the
>> cause for the anyathā grahaṇa (अन्यथाग्रहण or  विक्षेप another aspect of
>> अविद्या)  of samsara is the अनर्थहेतु , although samsara is directly
>> manifest.
>>
>>
>>
>> Now we consider the manifestation aspect of आवरण. Clearly the आवरण aspect
>> is not discernible , even though present , at the time of विक्षेप.
>> Ignorance of the rope is not known ( manifest )  at the time of perception
>> of the rope-snake even though it is present and is the cause for the
>> perception of the rope-snake. Similar is the case with the विक्षेप of
>> samsara also. आवरण aspect of अविद्या also is present during विक्षेप but
>> not
>> discerned. In the case of the rope-snake, rope is perceived later and the
>> cause for the appearance of the rope-snake is determined to be the
>> ignorance of the rope. What about samsara. Atman is not readily available
>> for perception like the rope. So how to conclude samsara is विक्षेप and
>> not
>> real. More so because such a conclusion flies in the face of other
>> pramanas
>> to the contrary. In the absence of any reasonable pramana, such a
>> conclusion becomes at best a postulate, just like any other innumerable
>> postulates about Creation/God/Jiva. Backing of the Shruti is no doubt
>> available, but it is a feature of Advaita Sidhanta that the conclusions
>> arrived at in accordance with the Shruti are such that they cannot be
>> contradicted by logic or anubhava. सुषुप्ति anubhava is the ONLY pramana
>> for bringingout the आवरण aspect of the Atman while the other two states (
>> स्वप्न and जाग्रत्) bringout the विक्षेप aspect. That is why so much
>> prominence is given to सुषुप्ति in BU Bhashya, a point highlighted by Sri
>> Sadananda Ji also in his recent post in this thread. At this stage I just
>> copy from my earlier post for the sake of completeness.
>>
>>
>>
>> <<  It is in this state of सुषुप्ति that the Jiva is directly in
>> association solely with the Atman, without any distraction in the form of
>> diversity of Creation ( विक्षेप ) , but is still unable to realize its
>> identity with the Atman, the cause being आवरण ( ignorance of one's own
>> true
>> nature ) caused by अविद्या. This is the अभिव्यक्त अविद्या which is
>> अनर्थहेतु
>>  because this ignorance of one's own true nature is the fundamental cause
>> of all samsara. This is predominantly noticeable only during सुषुप्ति. In
>> the other two states it is camouflaged by the distraction caused by the
>> diversity of Creation ( विक्षेप caused by the same अविद्या ). This I
>> believe is how the statement of Sri Anandagiri Acharya has to be
>> understood.>>.
>>
>>
>>
> Going by your above reasoning,
>
> suppose the Jiva realizes its identity with Atman during  जाग्रत्
> (waking) through
> Sruti maha vAkya (Guru upAdesa), is it fair to say that -
>
> in the state of सुषुप्ति, when the (realized) Jiva is directly in
> association solely with the Atman, it will continue to know  its
> identity with the Atman, since there is no longer आवरण ( ignorance of
> one's own true
> nature ) caused by अविद्या, as it was destroyed by the realization in जाग्रत्
> (waking) ?
>
> In that case, such a jIva upon waking up from deep sleep  should mention
> that It
> continued to have Self-knowledge (Atma jnAna) during सुषुप्ति ?
>
> Thanks
>
>
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 14, 2016 at 4:41 PM, V Subrahmanian <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com
>> >
>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > On Thu, Jan 14, 2016 at 3:38 PM, H S Chandramouli <
>> > hschandramouli at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Sri Venkatraghavan Ji,
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I am quoting below from the latest post by Sri Subrahmanian Ji
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> << In the above bhaṣyam we can see that the āvaraṇa has been said to be
>> >> of the nature of 'tattva apratibodha', that is, not-knowing of the
>> >> Truth, which is the seed. For what? For the anyathā grahaṇa, which is
>> >> the effect, the
>> >> sprout of the seed: vikṣepa. This is present in the two states jāgrat
>> and
>> >> svapna. The 'seed' is present in all states as the fundamental
>> ignorance.
>> >> This is what is meant by 'agantuka' in the current discussion, while
>> the
>> >> 'seed' is admitted to be anādi and present in all states, through all
>> >> janmas. till one becomes enlightened, which is what the above verse
>> >> finally says .>>.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I am not clear what is referred to by the statement << This is what is
>> >> meant by 'agantuka' in the current discussion >>. Which is meant by
>> >> agantuka – seed ('tattva apratibodha' ) or vikshepa ??  I am not sure.
>> If
>> >> seed is meant along with its effect of आवरण ('tattva apratibodha' ) ,
>> >> that is what I have been saying also all along. Sri Subrahmanian Ji may
>> >> please clarify.
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > It is the vikṣepa that is meant here as 'āgantuka' since that is what is
>> > manifest and is anarthahetu directly.
>> >
>> > regards
>> > vs
>> >
>> >
>> >
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