Truth is Here and Now

[Shashikanth Hosur]

Hi,

        A conversation with Nisargadatta Maharaj from "I am That" typed
        out verbatim; please excuse the typos.

Bala


                        TRUTH IS HERE AND NOW

Questioner: My question is: What is the proof of truth? Followers of
every religion, metaphysical or political, philosophical or ethical,
are convinced that their's is the only truth, that all else is false
and they take their own unshakable conviction for the proof of truth.
'I am convinced, so it must be true', they say. It seems to me, that
no philosophy or religion, no doctrine or ideology, however complete,
free from inner contradictions and emotionally appealing, can be proof
of its own truth. They are like clothes men put on, which vary with
times and circumstances and follow the fashion trends.

  Now, can there be a religion or philosophy which is true and which
does not depend on somebody's conviction? Nor on scriptures, because
they again depend on somebody's faith in them? Is there a truth which
does not depend on trusting, which is not subjective?

Maharaj: What about science?

Q: Science is cicrular, it ends where it starts, with the senses.
It deals with experience, and experience is subjective. No two persons
can have the same experience, though they may express it in the same
words.

M: You must look for truth beyond the mind.

Q: Sir, I have had enough of trances. Any drug can induce them cheaply
and quickly. Even the classical samadhis, caused by breathing or mental
exercises, are not much different. There are oxygen samadhis and carbon
dioxide samadhis and self-induced samadhis, caused by repetition of a
formula or a chain of thoughts. Monotony is soporific. I cannot accept
samadhi, however glorious, as a proof of truth.

M: Samadhi is beyond experience. It is a qualityless state.

S: The absence of experience is due to inattention. It reappears with
attention. Closing one's eyes does not disprove light. Attributing
reality to negative states will not take us far. The very negation
contains an affirmation.

M: In a way you are right. But don't you see, you are asking for the
proof of truth, without explaining what is the truth you have in mind
and what proof will satisfy you? You can prove anything, provided you
trust your proof. But what will prove that your proof is true? I can
easily drive you into an admission that you know only that you exist -
that you are the only proof you can have of anything. But I do not
identify mere existence with reality. Existence is momentary, always
in time and space, while reality is changeless and all-pervading.

Q: Sir, I do not know what is truth and what can prove it. Do not throw
me on my own resources. I have none. Here you are the truth-knower, not
me.

M: You refuse testimony as the proof of truth: the experience of others
is of no use to you, you reject all inference from the concurring
statements of a vast number of independent witnesses; so it is for you
to tell me what is the proof that will satisfy you, what is your test
of a valid proof?

Q: Honestly, I do not know what makes a proof.

M: Not even your own experience?

Q: Neither my experience, nor even existence. They depend on my being
conscious.

M: And your being conscious depends on what?

Q: I do not know. Formerly, I would have said: on my mody; now I can
see that the body is secondary, not primary, and cannot be considered
as an evidence of existence.

M: I am glad you have abandoned the I-am-the-body idea, the main source
of error and suffering.

Q: I have abandoned it intellectually, but the sense of being the
particular, a person, is still with me. I can say: 'I am', but what I
am I cannot say. I know I exist, but I do not know what exists.
Whichever way I put it, I face the unknown.

M: Your very being is the real.

Q: Surely, we are not talking of the same thing. I am not some abstract
being. I am a person, limited and aware of its limitations. I am a fact,
but a most unsubstantial fact I am. There is nothing I can build on my
momentary existence as a person.

M: Your words are wiser than you are! As a person, your existence is
momentary. But are you a person only? Are you a person at all?

Q: How am I to answer? My sense of being proves only that I am; it does
not prove anything which is independent of me. I am relative, both
creature and creator of the relative. The absolute proof of the absolute
truth - what is it, where is it? Can the mere feeling 'I am' be the
proof of reality?

M: Of couse not. 'I am' and 'the world is' are related and conditional.
They are due to the tendency of the mind to project names and shapes.

Q: Names and shapes and ideas and convictions, but not truth. But for
you I would have accepted the relativity of everything, including truth,
and learnt to live by assumptions. But then I meet you and hear you
talking of the Absolute as within my reach and also as supremely desirable.
Words like peace, bliss, eternity, immortality, catch my attention, as
offering freedom from pain and fear. My inborn instincts: pleasure
seeking and curiosity are roused and I begin to explore the realm you
have opened. All seems most attractive and naturally I ask. Is it
attainable? Is it real?

M: You are like a child that says: Prove that the sugar is sweet then
only I shall have it. The proof of the sweetness is in the mouth not
in the sugar. To know it is sweet, you must taste it, there is no other
way. Of course, you begin by asking: Is it sugar? Is it sweet? and you
accept my assurance until you taste it. Then only all doubts dissolve
and your knowledge becomes first hand and unshakable. I do not ask you
to believe me. Just trust me enough to begin with. Every step proves or
disproves itself. You seem to want the proof of truth to precede truth.
And what will be the proof of the proof? You see, you are falling into
a regress. To cut it you must put a stop to asking for proofs and accept,
for a moment only, something as true. It does not really matter what it
is. It may be God, or me, or your own self. In each case you accept
something, or somebody, unknown as true. Now, if you act on the truth
you have accepted, even for a moment, very soon you will be brought to
the next step. It is like climbing a tree in the dark - you can get hold
of the next branch only when you are perched on the previous one. In
science it is called the experimental approach. To prove a theory you
carry out an experiment according to the operational instructions, left
by those who have made the experiment before you. In spiritual search
the chain of experiments one has to make is called Yoga.

Q: There are so many Yogas, which to choose?

M: Of course, every gnani will suggest the path of his own attainment
as the one he knows most intimately. But most of them are very liberal
and adapt their advice to the needs of the enquirer. All the paths take
you to the purification of the mind. The impure mind is opaque to truth;
the pure mind is transparent. Truth can be seen through it easily and
clearly.

Q: I am sorry, but I seem unable to convey my difficulty. I am asking
about the proof of truth and am being given the methods of attainig it.
Assuming I follow the methods and attain some most wonderful and desirable
state, how do I come to know that my state is true? Every religion begins
with faith and promises some ecstasy. Is the ecstasy of the real, or the
product of faith? For, if it is an induced state, I shall have nothing
to do with it. Take Christianity that says: Jesus is your Saviour, believe
and be saved from sin. When I ask a sinning Christian how is it that he
has not been saved from sin inspite of his faith in Christ, he answers:
My faith is not perfect. Again we are in the vicious circle - without
perfect faith - no salvation, without salvation - no perfect faith, hence
no salvation. Conditions are imposed which are unfulfillable and then
we are blamed for not fulfilling them.

M: You do not realize that your persent waking state is one of ignorance.
Your question about the proof of truth is born from ignorance of reality.
You are contacting your sensory and mental states in consciousness, at
the point of 'I am', while reality is not mediated, not contacted, not
experienced. You are taking duality so much for granted, that you do not
even notice it, while to me variety and diversity do not create separation.
You imagine reality to stand apart from names and forms, while to me
names and forms are the ever changing expressions of reality and not
apart from it. You ask for the proof of truth while to me all existence
is the proof. You separate existence from being and being from reality,
while to me it is all one. However much you are convinced of the truth
of your waking state, you do not claim it to be permanent and changeless,
as I do when I talk of mine. Yet I see no difference between us, except
that you are imagining things, while I do not.

Q: First you disqualify me from asking about truth, then you accuse me
of imagination! What is imagination to you is reality to me.

M: Until you investigate. I am not accusing you of anything. I am only
asking you to question wisely. Instead of searching for the proof of
truth, which you do not know, go through the proofs you have of what you
believe to know. You will find you know nothing for sure - you trust on
hearsay. To know the truth, you must pass through your own experience.

Q: I am mortally afraid of samadhis and other trances, whatever their
cause. A drink a smoke, a fever, a drug, breathing, singing, shaking,
dancing, whirling, praying, sex or fasting, mantras or some vertiginous
abstraction can dislodge me from my waking state and give me some
experience, extraordinary because unfamiliar. But when the cause ceases,
the effect dissolves and only a memory remains, haunting but fading.

   Let us give up all means and their results, for the results are bound
by the means; let us put the question anew; can truth be found?

M: Where is the dwelling place of truth where you could go in search
of it? And how will you know that you have found it? What touchstone
do you bring with you to test it? You are back at your initial question;
What is the proof of truth? There must be something wrong with the question
itself, for you tend to repeat it again and again. Why do you ask what
are the proofs of truth? Is it not because you do not know truth first
hand and you are afraid that you may be deceived? You imagine that truth
is a thing which carries the name 'truth' and that it is advantageous
to have it, provided it is genuine. Hence your fear of being cheated.
You are shopping fro truth, but you do not trust the merchants. You
are afraid of forgeries and imitations.

Q: I am not afraid of being cheated. I am afraid of cheating myself.

M: But you are cheating yourself in your ignorance of your true motives.
You are asking for truth, but in fact you merely seek comfort, which
you want to last for ever. Now, nothing, no state of mind, can last for
ever. In time and space there is always a limit, because time and space
themselves are limited. And in the timeless the words 'for ever' have
no meaning. The same with the 'proof of truth'. In the realm of non-duality
everything is complete, its own proof, meaning and purpose. Where all is
one, no supports are needed. You imagine that permanence is the proof of
truth, that what lasts longer is somehow more true. Time becomes the
measure of truth. And since time is in the mind, the mind becomes the
arbiter and searches within itself the proof of truth - a task altogether
impossible and hopeless!

Q: Sir, were you to say: Nothing is true, all is relative, I would agree
with you. But you maintain there is truth, reality, perfect knowledge,
therefore I ask: What is it and how do you know? And what will make me
say: Yes, Maharaj was right?

M: You are holding on to the need for a proof, a testimony, an authority.
You still imagine that truth needs pointing at and telling you: 'Look,
here is truth'. It is not so. Truth is not the result of an effort, the
end of a road. It is here and now, in the very longing and the search
for it. It is nearer than the mind and the body, nearer than the sense
'I am'. You do not see it because you look too far away from yourself,
outside your innermost being. You have objectified truth and insist on
your standard proofs and tests, which apply only to things and thoughts.

Q: All I can make out from what you say is that truth is beyond me and
I am not qualified to talk about it.

M: You are not only qualified, but you are truth itself. Only you
mistake the false for the true.

Q: You seem to say: Don't ask for proofs of truth. Concern yourself
with untruth only.

M: The discovery of truth is in the discernment of the false. You can
know what is not. What is - you can only be. Knowledge is relative to
the known. In a way it is the counterpart of ignorance. Where ignorance
is not, where is the need of knowledge? By themselves neither ignorance
nor knowledge have being. They are only states of mind, which again
is but an appearance of movement in consciousness which is in its
essence immutable.

Q: Is truth within the realm of the mind or beyond?

M: It is neither, it is both. It cannot be put into words.

Q: This is what I hear all the time - inexpressible (anirvachaniya).
It does not make me wiser.

M: It is true that it often covers sheer ignorance. The mind can operate
with terms of its own making, it just cannot go beyond itself. That
which is neither sensory nor mental, and yet without which neither
sensory nor the mental can exist, cannot be contained in them. Do
understand that the mind has its limits; to go beyond, you must consent
to silence.

Q: Can we say that action is the proof of truth? It may not be verbalized,
but it may be demonstrated.

M: Neither action nor inaction. It is beyond both.

Q: Can a man ever say: 'Yes this is true'? Or is he limited to the denial
of the false? In other words, is truth pure negation? Or, does a moment
come when it becomes assertion?

M: Truth cannot be described, but it can be experienced.

Q: Experience is subjective, it cannot be shared. Your experiences
leave me where I am.

M: Truth can be experienced, but it is not mere experience. I know it
and I can convey it, but only if you are open to it. To be open means
to want nothing else.

Q: I am full of desires and fears. Does it mean that I am not eligible
for truth?

M: Truth is not a reward for good behaviour, nor a prize for passing
some tests. It cannot be brought about. It is the primary, the unborn,
the ancient source of all that is. You are elgible because you are.
You need not merit truth. It is your own. Just stop running away by
running after. Stand still, be quiet.

Q: Sir, if you want the body to be still and the mind - quiet, tell
me how it is done. In self-awareness I see the body and the mind moved
by causes beyond my control. Heredity and environment dominate me
absolutely. The mighty 'I am' the creator of the universe, can be
wiped out by a drug temporarily, or a drop of poison - permanently.

M: Again, you take yourself to be the body.

Q: Even if I dismiss this body of bones, flesh and bood as not-me,
still I remain with the subtle body made up of thoughts and feelings,
memories and imaginations. If I dismis these also as not-me, I still
remain with consciousness, which also is a kind of body.

M: You are quite right, but you need not stop there. Go beyond.
Neither consciousness, nor the 'I am' at the centre of it are you.
Your true being is entirely unself-conscious, completely free from
all self-iedntification with whatever it may be, gross, subtle or
transcendental.

Q: I can imagine myself to be beyond. But what proof have I? To be,
I must be somebody.

M: It is the other way round. To be you must be nobody. To think
yourself to be something, or somebody is death and hell.

Q: I have read that in ancient Egypt people were admitted to some
mysteries where, under the influence of drugs or incatations, they
would be expelled from their bodies and could actually experience
standing outside and looking at their own prostrate forms. This was
intended to convince them of the reality of the after-death existence
and create in them a deep concern with their ultimate destiny, so
profitable to the state and the temple. The self-identification with
the person owning the body remained.

M: The body is made of food, as the mind is made of thoughts. See
them as they are. Non-identification, when natural and spontaneous,
is liberation. You need not know what you are. Enough to know what
you are not. What you are you will never know, for every discovery
reveals new dimensions to conquer. The unknown has no limits.

Q: Does it imply ignorance for ever?

M: It means that ignorance never was. Truth is in the discovery, not
in the discovered. And to discovery there is no beginning and no end.
Question the limits, go beyond, set yourself tasks apparently impossible
- this is the way.