Dream & Waking States

[M Suresh]

Ramakrishnan Balasubramanian wrote :

> Suresh wrote:
>
> >  Firstly dream is a secondary experience derived from the reality of the
> >  waking state, whereas the waking state is a primary experience derived
> >  directly from Brahman.
>
> I disagree with this statement (partly). Vidya and I had a discussion on the
> list (perhaps before you came) once, with Vidya adopting a position somewhat
> similar to yours.
>
> But I guess one is convinced either one way or the other and I don't want to
> repeat what I said earlier. Again the gauDapaada kaarikaa treats this subject
> in some detail and various objections and counter objections are examined.
 Also
> shaMkara states various objections in his bhaashhya (in fact all your
> objections have been stated by him) and then proceeds to answer them. Swami
> Nikhilananda has a good translation of the kaarikaa. He informs us that the
> kaarikaa was explained to him by a direct disciple of H.H. nR^isiMha bhaaratii
> swami (Sringeri), and that the disciple (I forget the name) had studied the
> kaarikaa for decades. The kaarikaa was the book recommended by his guru, since
> the kaarikaa explains all it's arguments based both on logic and the vedas and
> hence is not a merely polemical work based on scripture. So gauDapaada
 explains
> his position on dreams based on both the vedas and logic, independently. I
 found
> it convincing and till now have neither been able to raise a valid
 counter-point
> (which could change my mind), nor have I seen anyone do so.

  Thanks to Giri!  I read the two  links given by Giri  pointing to earlier
  discussions which in addition to serious discussion had light stuff about
  "Dreaming Habits" of various people in this group.

  I understand the  limitation of analysing the dream in  the waking state.
  However the  waking state  always wins  in my  case ( Again  the decision
  comes from  the waking  state :-) ).  Considering Reversing the  roles of
  analysis from waking  state to dream state ( That is  the analysis of the
  waking state is to be done in  the dream state ) I have never analysed my
  waking state in my  dream state and pronounced it to be false.  Once in a
  way  when I  fly in  my dreams  I have  reprimanded myself  for being  so
  foolish as to think that I could never fly,  but again this thought about
  the waking state came  as if I had that idea that I  could not fly in the
  dream world  I was in,  and not as an analysis  of the waking state  as a
  state separate from the dream state.

  It is for the this in addition to the various reasons given before that I
  like to  think of  dreams as  something nested  within,  and as something
  secondary to the world experience ( world dream if you like it ).  I feel
  it more comfortable to think of  the other two states superimposed on the
  waking state rather than all as equal and one being removed and the other
  being brought in over the unchanging self.

  After all  it is  possible to have  dreams within dreams.  I have  read a
  comic strip  where a  guy is sleeping  on the sofa  waving his  hands and
  saying "get  lost".  When woken up  he recalls his  dream.  The dream was
  that he  was trying  to get  some good sleep  and people  were disturbing
  him :-).

  As you  have mentioned it  is a matter of  which view one  is comfortable
  with.  I  suppose traditional  advaitins  including  Shankara and  Ramana
  Maharishi hold the view you have mentioned.  I think it comes from the "I
  only no others approach" recommended.  Or maybe people who remember their
  dreams hold on to my view.

> Ramakrishnan.

Suresh.