Talks with Ramana Maharshi (fwd)

[Giri]

>From the Indian philosophy mailing list. Thought it might interest
readers on the advaita list.
-------------------------------------------------
typed by Ramesh.


      FROM "TALKS WITH SRI RAMANA MAHARSHI "
      -------------------------------------
       (Talk no. 487 dated 2nd & 3rd May 1938)

(Note: A young English woman was the questioner. That's why there is
reference to a biblical quotation towards the end of this talk.)

Questioner(Q): What is the object of Self-Realisation?

Maharshi(M)  : Why should you seek Self-realisation? Why do you not rest
content with your present state? It is evident that you are discontented
with the present state. The discontent is at an end if you realise the Self.

Q:  What is that self-realisation which removes the discontent? I am in
the world and there are wars in it. Can self-realisation put an end to it?

M:  Are you in the world? Or is the world in you?

Q:  I do not understand. The world is certainly around me.

M:  You speak of the world and happenings in it. They are mere ideas in
you.  The ideas are in the mind. The mind is within you. And so the world
is within you.

Q:  I do not follow you. Even if I do not think of the world, the world
is still there.

M:  Do you mean to say that the world is apart from the mind and it can
exist in the absence of the mind?

Q:  Yes.

M:  Does the world exist in your deep sleep?

D:  It does.

M:  Do you see it in your sleep?

Q:  No, I don't. But the others, who are awake, see it.

M:  Are you so aware in your sleep? Or do you become aware of the other's
knowledge now?

Q:  In my waking state.

M:  So you speak of the waking knowledge and not of sleep-experience. The
existence of the world in your waking and dream states is admitted
because they are the products of the mind. The mind is withdrawn in the
sleep and the world is in the condition of a seed. It becomes manifest
over again when you wake up. The ego springs forth, identifies itself
with the body and sees the world. So the world is a mental creation.

Q:  How can it be?

M:  Do you not create a world in your dream? The waking state also is a
long drawn out dream. There must be a seer behind the waking and dream
experiences. Who is the seer? Is it the body?

Q:  It cannot be.

M:  Is it the mind?

Q:  It must be so.

M:  But you remain in the absence of the mind.

Q:  How?

M:  In deep sleep.

Q:  I do not know if I am then.

M:  If you were not, how do you recollect yesterday's experiences? Is it
possible that there was a break in the continuity of the 'I' during sleep?

Q:  It may be.

M:  If so, a Johnson may wake up as a Benson. How will the identity of
the individual be established?

Q:  I don't know.

M:  If this argument is not clear, follow a different line. You admit "I
slept well", "I feel refreshed after a sound sleep". So sleep was your
experience. The experiencer now identifies himself with the 'I' in the
speaker. So this 'I' must have been in sleep also.

Q:  Yes.

M:  So 'I' was in sleep; if the world was then there, did it say that it
existed?

Q:  No. But the world tells me its existence now. Even if I deny its
experience, I may knock against a stone and hurt my foot. The injury
proves the existence of the stone and so of the world.

M:  Quite so. The stone hurts the foot. Does the foot say that there is
the stone?

Q:  No. - 'I'.

M:  Who is this 'I'? It cannot be the body nor the mind as we have seen
before. This 'I' is the one who experiences the waking, dream and sleep
states. The three states are changes which do not affect the individual.
The experiences are like pictures passing on a screen in the cinema. The
appearance and disappearance of the pictures do not affect the screen. So
also, the three states alternate with one another leaving the self
unaffected. The waking and dream states are creations of the mind. So the
Self covers all. To know that the Self remains happy in its perfection is
self-realisation. Its use lies in the realisation of perfection and thus
happiness.

Q:  Can it be complete happiness to remain self-realised if one does not
contribute to the happiness of the world? How can one be so happy when
there is a war in Spain, a war in China? Is it not selfishness to remain
self-realised without helping the world?

M:  The Self was pointed out to you to cover the universe and also
transcend it. The world cannot remain apart from the Self. If the
realisation of such Self be called selfishness that selfishness must cover
the world also. It is nothing contemptible.

Q:  Does not the realised man continue to live just like a non-realised
being?

M:  Yes, with this difference that the realised being does not see the
world as being apart from the Self, he possesses true knowledge and the
internal happiness of being perfect, whereas the world apart, feels
imperfection and is miserable. Otherwise their physical actions are similar.

Q:  The realised being also knows there are wars being waged in the
world, just like the other man.

M:  Yes.

Q:  How then can he be happy?

M:  Is the cinema screen affected by a scene of fire burning or sea
rising? So it is with the Self.

    The idea that I am the body or the mind is so deep that one cannot
get over it even if convinced otherwise. One experiences a dream and
knows it to be unreal on waking. Waking experience is unreal in other
states. So each state contradicts the others. They are therefore mere
changes taking place in the seer, or phenomena appearing in the Self,
which is unbroken and remains unaffected by them. Just as the waking,
dream and sleep states are phenomena, so also birth, growth and death are
phenomena in the Self, which continues to be unbroken and unaffected.
Birth and death are only ideas. They pertain to the body or the mind. The
Self exists before the birth of this body and will remain after the death
of this body. So it is with the series of bodies taken up in succession.
The Self is immortal. The phenomena are changeful and appear mortal. The
fear of death is of the body. It is not true of the Self. Such fear is
due to ignorance. Realisation means true knowledge of the perfection and
immortality of the Self. Mortality is only an idea and cause of misery.
You get rid of it by realising the immortal nature of the Self.

Q:  If the world is only a dream, how should it be harmonised with the
eternal reality?

M:  The harmony consists in the realisation of its inseparateness from
the Self.

Q:  But a dream is fleeting and unreal. It is also contradicted by the
waking state.

M:  The waking experiences are similar.

Q:  One lives fifty years and finds a continuity in the waking experience
which is absent in dreams.

M:  You go to sleep and dream a dream in which the experiences of fifty
years are condensed within the short duration of the dream, say five
minutes. There is also a continuity in the dream. Which is real now? Is
the period covering fifty years of your waking state real or the short
duration of five minutes of your dream. Which is real now? Is the period
covering fifty years of your waking state real or the short duration of
five minutes of your dream? The standards of time differ in the two
states. That is all. There is no other difference between the experiences.

Q:  The spirit remains unaffected by the passing phenomena and by the
successive bodies of repeated births. How does each body get the life to
set it acting?

M:  The spirit is differentiated from matter and is full of life. The body
is animated by it.

Q:  The realised being is then the spirit and unaware of the world.

M:  He sees the world but not as separate from the Self.

Q:  If the world is full of pain, why should he continue the world-idea?

M:  Does the realised being tell you that the world is full of pain? It
is the other one who feels the pain and seek the help of the wise saying
that the world is painful. Then the wise one explains from his experience
that if one withdraws within the Self, there is an end of pain. The pain
is felt so long as the object is different from oneself. But when the
Self is found to be an undivided whole, who and what is there to feel?
The realised mind is the holy spirit and the other mind is the home of
the devil. For the realised being this is the kingdom of heaven. "The
kingdom of heaven is within you". That kingdom is here and now.










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>From  Tue Oct 15 02:46:21 1996
Message-Id: <TUE.15.OCT.1996.024621.GMT.>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 02:46:21 GMT
Reply-To: kstuart at mail.telis.org
To: "Advaita (non-duality) with reverence" <ADVAITA-L at TAMU.EDU>
From: Ken Stuart <kstuart at MAIL.TELIS.ORG>
Subject: Re: Ancient Knowledge, New Knowledge
Comments: To: "Advaita (non-duality) with reverence" <ADVAITA-L at TAMU.EDU>
In-Reply-To: <01BBB5C9.C479EF40 at ala-ca9-21.ix.netcom.com>
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Hello,

On Wed, 9 Oct 1996 10:07:55 -0700, "Ms. Aikya Param"
<aikya at IX.NETCOM.COM> wrote:

>Hi Kim-

Who is Kim ?


Namaskar,

Ken
kstuart at mail.telis.org

"The ego arises from the mistaken notion that the light of consciousness
reflected in the intellect and coloured by objectively perceived phenomena
is the true nature of the Self.  Thus, the personal ego falsely identifies
the Self with that which is not the Self and vice versa." - Mark Dyczkowski