truce required

[Ramakrishnan Balasubramanian]

Murthy wrote:

> The threads "Disciples of Sri Ramana Maharshi" and the ensuing thread
> "Guru-disciple-enlightenment topic" are taking a shape of their own and
> are almost on the point of destroying the Advaita Group. It is producing
> more heat than light lately.
>
> While Sri Ken Stewart's original enquiry is harmless, later discussion
> brought in names of disciples of Sri Ramana Maharshi whom someone branded
> as false gurus without producing evidence.
>
> What I consider an unfortunate editing mistake by Sri Ramakrishnan
> attributed that statement wrongly to Sri Ken Stewart and that took a
> shape of its own. Under such circumstances, Ken's plea for proper
> attribution of statements is not getting much of attention. Similarly,

I know I had said I wouldn't answer this thread anymore. But, I did point out
my mistake in attributions. Actually my arguments with Ken did not result from
the mistaken attribution. When it was claimed that Ganapati Muni et al were
crooks, Ken did quote that and said "I agree dead gurus can't kick butt". So I
(rightly, I think) thought that Ken agreed with the statement that all those
personalities were crooks. Upon which I pointed out the chronological
inconsistencies in that slander. Now that Ken has said he does not know
anything about these people the matter is resolved.

> the request by Sri Giri to stop slandering people without any evidence
> is not getting much attention either.
>
> The Group seems to be in a charged atmosphere, and the peace required
> (for the contemplation in the Self) is getting destroyed.
>
> May I suggest, before any further damage is done, that we refrain posting
> on this topic anymore for the present. Many wrong attributions and false

I hope the wrong attributions are no more in place. The content of my mail was
not significantly changed by that in any case.

Ramakrishnan.
--
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant (May faulty logic
undermine your entire philosophy)           -- strong Vulcan curse
                  http://yake.ecn.purdue.edu/~rbalasub/

>From  Thu Oct 31 22:27:56 1996
Message-Id: <THU.31.OCT.1996.222756.GMT.>
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 22:27:56 GMT
Reply-To: kstuart at mail.telis.org
To: "Advaita (non-duality) with reverence" <ADVAITA-L at TAMU.EDU>
From: Ken Stuart <kstuart at MAIL.TELIS.ORG>
Subject: Absolute truth versus Relative truth (was Re:
        Guru-disciple-enlightenment topic)
Comments: To: "Advaita (non-duality) with reverence" <ADVAITA-L at TAMU.EDU>
In-Reply-To: <M.103196.180908.04 at ddi.digital.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hello,

Hello,

On Thu, 31 Oct 1996 23:09:07 GMT, egodust <egodust at DIGITAL.NET> wrote:

>It begins to dawn that, in fact, Self-realization is already present
>despite the phenomenal manifestation of the jeeva (ego).

This statement is self-contradictory.

If "realization" is already present, then it cannot "begin to dawn".

I think that you are confusing two things, the "Self", ie
Atman/Brahman, and "Self-realization".

Here is Ramana Maharshi speaking on this subject from the book "The
Spiritual Teachings of Ramana Maharshi",  page 73:

"You are the Self, you are already That.
The fact is, you are ignorant of your blissful state. Ignorance
supervenes and draws a veil over the pure Self which is Bliss.
Attempts are directed only to remove this veil of ignorance which is
merely wrong knowledge.  The wrong knowledge is the false
identification of the self with the body, mind etc.  This False
identification must go, and then the Self alone remains. "

====

This false identification IS the state of non-realization or
non-enlightenment.

Note Maharshi says ".... must go, and THEN the Self alone remain. "

On page 74, Maharshi says "Retaining: once you realize the Self, it
becomes your direct and immediate experience.  It is never lost."

Note Maharshi says ".... ONCE you realize the Self..."

Thus he is specifically referring to a process that occurs - in time.
Self-realization is the end result of that process.

Before this process is complete, there IS false identification.

> [...]
>There's a point when the advaitic axiom that 'one is already enlightened'
> [...]
>This is why the idea that 'everyone is a jnani' isn't so farfetched.
>  [...]
>The shift into **the discovery that we have ever been awake** is like
> [...]

Here is what Maharshi actually has to say on page 72-73:

" All that is necessary is to get rid of the thought 'I have not
realized'."

" This very doubt, whether you can realize, and the notion
'I-have-not-realized' are themselves the obstacles. "

There are two interesting aspects to these quotes:

(1) Maharshi is not saying that "I have not realized" is a false
description of the state of things.  Quite the opposite, since he is
saying "it is necessary to get rid of" and "obstacles are".

(2) Maharshi is saying that the course of action is to get rid of the
*thought* "I have not realized".   This is a psychological technique,
which understands that the mind can do whatever it focuses on, and
cannot do anything that it tells itself it cannot do.   In other
words, ridding oneself of the thought "I have not realized" allows the
Self to become freed.

This is why answering "you are already enlightened" to the question
"Where is the bathroom?" is not appropriate.


Namaskar,

Ken

kstuart at mail.telis.org
>From ADVAITA-L at TAMU.EDU Fri Nov  1 00:49:08 1996
Message-Id: <FRI.1.NOV.1996.004908.GMT.ADVAITAL at TAMU.EDU>
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 00:49:08 GMT
Reply-To: "Advaita (non-duality) with reverence" <ADVAITA-L at TAMU.EDU>
To: "Advaita (non-duality) with reverence" <ADVAITA-L at TAMU.EDU>
From: egodust <egodust at DIGITAL.NET>
Subject: Re: Absolute truth versus Relative truth (was Re: Guru-disciple
Comments: To: Multiple recipients of list ADVAITA-L <ADVAITA-L at TAMU.EDU>

Ken wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> On Thu, 31 Oct 1996 23:09:07 GMT, egodust <egodust at DIGITAL.NET> wrote:
>
> >It begins to dawn that, in fact, Self-realization is already present
> >despite the phenomenal manifestation of the jeeva (ego).
>
> This statement is self-contradictory.
>
> If "realization" is already present, then it cannot "begin to dawn".


It "begins to dawn" on the investigating jiva (ego-Mind) that underneath
its limited body parameter is an everpresent and unchanging Being-ness.
Then the jiva is engulfed by its own dream.  Somehow the conclusion is
that it never was.  Who can understand this?  No one.

>
> I think that you are confusing two things, the "Self", ie
> Atman/Brahman, and "Self-realization".
>
> Here is Ramana Maharshi speaking on this subject from the book "The
> Spiritual Teachings of Ramana Maharshi",  page 73:
>
> "You are the Self, you are already That.
> The fact is, you are ignorant of your blissful state. Ignorance
> supervenes and draws a veil over the pure Self which is Bliss.
> Attempts are directed only to remove this veil of ignorance which is
> merely wrong knowledge.  The wrong knowledge is the false
> identification of the self with the body, mind etc.  This False
> identification must go, and then the Self alone remains. "
>
> ====
>
> This false identification IS the state of non-realization or
> non-enlightenment.

If "non-realization" were a "state," it would imply that it's real.
Is it real?  Or is it just--as Bhagavan says--"wrong knowledge."
This is the significance of being pulled by something that isn't
there.  How can it be possible?  It's an incredibly cunning,
deceptive Mind game.  It's just the way it all *appears*. Verily,
this is maya!

There's a beautiful quote in the Yoga Vashistha:
    "This world-appearance is a confusion: even as the bluenessof the
sky is an optical illusion.  I think it is better not to let the mind
dwell on it, but to ignore it." (I.3.2)


>
> Note Maharshi says ".... must go, and THEN the Self alone remain. "
>
> On page 74, Maharshi says "Retaining: once you realize the Self, it
> becomes your direct and immediate experience.  It is never lost."
>
> Note Maharshi says ".... ONCE you realize the Self..."
>
> Thus he is specifically referring to a process that occurs - in time.
> Self-realization is the end result of that process.
>
> Before this process is complete, there IS false identification.

Yes, there are stages in time.  Yet, they are also unreal when
time is transcended.  When thoughts are stopped, what happens
to time?.....where are the stages?  Yet, is there an empty void?

No need to bother with the polemics.  Just being It is enough.
Just *Be* It. (should become the new Nike slogan!)

>
> > [...]
> >There's a point when the advaitic axiom that 'one is already enlightened'
> > [...]
> >This is why the idea that 'everyone is a jnani' isn't so farfetched.
> >  [...]
> >The shift into **the discovery that we have ever been awake** is like
> > [...]
>
> Here is what Maharshi actually has to say on page 72-73:
>
> " All that is necessary is to get rid of the thought 'I have not
> realized'."
>
> " This very doubt, whether you can realize, and the notion
> 'I-have-not-realized' are themselves the obstacles. "
>
> There are two interesting aspects to these quotes:
>
> (1) Maharshi is not saying that "I have not realized" is a false
> description of the state of things.  Quite the opposite, since he is
> saying "it is necessary to get rid of" and "obstacles are".
>
> (2) Maharshi is saying that the course of action is to get rid of the
> *thought* "I have not realized".   This is a psychological technique,
> which understands that the mind can do whatever it focuses on, and
> cannot do anything that it tells itself it cannot do.   In other
> words, ridding oneself of the thought "I have not realized" allows the
> Self to become freed.
>
> This is why answering "you are already enlightened" to the question
> "Where is the bathroom?" is not appropriate.
>

BOO! ...  Happy Halloween!

>
> Namaskar,
>
> Ken
>
> kstuart at mail.telis.org


namaskar.