Change and the changeless

[Charles A. Hillig]

>
>But, are there really changes in us ? We recently discussed ajnani turning
>into jnani. I submit there are no changes in us. We are changeless. There
>is no ajnani turning into jnani. That change is only from the perspective
>of ajnani. We are the same Devadatta, as Shri Shankara discussed so
>eloquently in Viveka ChuDAmaNi. We are jnani all the time. It is only we
>think we are ajnanis limited by our ignorance. I wonder if, as a
>meditation process, it would be a good idea to reflect continuously on the
>thought that we undergo no change and that we are eternal. Only if we see
>a change in ourselves, we are still in maaya.
>
>As usual, I would be most grateful for your comments.
>
>Regards
>Gummuluru Murthy


Hi, Gummuluru,

     But isn't that just another strategy?     Are you suggesting that I
"change" from what I am doing to start focusing in on my "changelessness?"

     If I do that, I've already defeated myself by changing from "I CAN
change" into "I can NOT change."

     Since it's just another position,  the question still remains:  "WHO
is the "holder" of this position concerning change?"

     We are changeless because "we" are not really "here" at all.

      Never have been,  Never will be.

     Only the Self is present.



                              With Blessings,

                                   Chuck Hillig

>From  Sun Nov  2 12:48:05 1997
Message-Id: <SUN.2.NOV.1997.124805.0500.>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 12:48:05 -0500
Reply-To: chandran at tidalwave.net
To: "Advaita (non-duality) with reverence" <ADVAITA-L at TAMU.EDU>
From: Ram Chandran <chandran at TIDALWAVE.NET>
Organization: Home Personal Account
Subject: Re: Fear
Comments: To: "Advaita (non-duality) with reverence" <ADVAITA-L at TAMU.EDU>
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Allan Curry wrote:
>
> Namaskar
>
> Gummuluru writes:
>
> >    They are the six great obstacles for the purification of
> >    the mind: they are kAma, krodha, lobha, moha, mada,
> >    mAtsarya (desire, anger, miserliness, passion, pride,
> >    jealousy or envy respectively).
>                 [...]
> >    It follows that the cause for fear is within our
> >    intellectual self. The intellectual self, being a slave
> >    of these six great enemies, feels the fear. The mind,
> >    propagating the intellect's submission (for these six
> >    great enemies), makes the jeeva afraid of unreal things.
> >    Once the intellect gets control of the six enemies,
> >    there will be no fear any more.
>
> I think there is a great deal of truth in what you say
> here and I am reminded about something the New Testament
> says, "love casteth out fear" or something to that
> effect. Maybe love can overcome the six great enemies.
> God is Love and we become God when we love God completely.
> That undifferentiated Oneness is also the fruit of the
> jnana path (IMO). Do others agree?
>
> Jai Ambe indeed!
>
> -Allan Curry

Namaskar:
      I not only agree with your statement but I want say that no one
can ever disagree that Undconditional Love will remove all fears! The
Hindu concept of Bhakti implies total to love to all living and
non-living beings! Total love to God who is omnipotent, omnipresent and
eternal necessarily means that there can be no enemies and evil
qualities. The unconditional love is known as Divine Love which is the
result of negating Ahamkara or selfishness and is therefore untainted by
any motive. It negates all worldy love in the mind of the devotee
(whether the devotee is a Christian, Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist or
whatsover). Consequently there is complete self-effacement where the
devotee negates the intellectual self!
   The person who conducts the Karma Yoga can perform the action without
looking for the fruits. Interestingly, Karma Yoga is impossible without
uncoditional or Divine Love for every living and non-living entities of
the Universe. This is Bhakti Yoga.  In Jnana Yoga the SELF-realized
person sees himself (herself) in everyone and he (she) merges with all
living and non-living entities of the Universe. When start any one of
these Yogas, we get the illusion that they are different!  But when we
have the WISDOM, we can see that Bhakti, Karma and Jnana are not only
interrelated but they mean the same!
   An intellectual analysis of self, SELF and Brahman can bring more
insigts.  self is the intellect or ego and SELF is the Atman. Brhaman
the totality according to these assumptions will imply equal to self
plus SELF.
               Brahman = self + SELF
This identity is mathematically valid if and only if self = 0! Unless we
surrender the ego or the intellect, we cann't realize the SELF. As long
as intellect is present, there will be fear. As long as intellect is
present, there will be objections to what I say now! I will face with
fear as long as I work with my self instead of SELF! A flash WISDOM
asks me to stop now and  SHUT UP!

>From  Sun Nov  2 21:29:02 1997
Message-Id: <SUN.2.NOV.1997.212902.0500.>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 21:29:02 -0500
Reply-To: chandran at tidalwave.net
To: "Advaita (non-duality) with reverence" <ADVAITA-L at TAMU.EDU>
From: Ram Chandran <chandran at TIDALWAVE.NET>
Organization: Home Personal Account
Subject: Re: Change and the changeless
Comments: To: "Advaita (non-duality) with reverence" <ADVAITA-L at TAMU.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Charles A. Hillig wrote:
>
> >
> >But, are there really changes in us ? We recently discussed ajnani turning
> >into jnani. I submit there are no changes in us. We are changeless. There
> >is no ajnani turning into jnani. That change is only from the perspective
> >of ajnani. We are the same Devadatta, as Shri Shankara discussed so
> >eloquently in Viveka ChuDAmaNi. We are jnani all the time. It is only we
> >think we are ajnanis limited by our ignorance. I wonder if, as a
> >meditation process, it would be a good idea to reflect continuously on the
> >thought that we undergo no change and that we are eternal. Only if we see
> >a change in ourselves, we are still in maaya.
> >
> >As usual, I would be most grateful for your comments.
> >
> >Regards
> >Gummuluru Murthy
>
> Hi, Gummuluru,
>
>      But isn't that just another strategy?     Are you suggesting that I
> "change" from what I am doing to start focusing in on my "changelessness?"
>
>      If I do that, I've already defeated myself by changing from "I CAN
> change" into "I can NOT change."
>
>      Since it's just another position,  the question still remains:  "WHO
> is the "holder" of this position concerning change?"
>
>      We are changeless because "we" are not really "here" at all.
>
>       Never have been,  Never will be.
>
>      Only the Self is present.
>
>                               With Blessings,
>
>                                    Chuck Hillig

        The questions, Whether I change?, Whether I am a Ajnani? and their
answers arise indicate that I am Ajnani! As long as I am at this
igonorant state, I want to change. If and when the moment comes where I
start believe that I am changeless, I will be changeless! Questions,
changes and answers indicate our desires and sensory perceptions! Until
we negate the questions and answers we are likely believe that we are
Anjanis! Even when we state that we are Jnaniz, we are Anjanis!

>From  Sun Nov  2 21:50:39 1997
Message-Id: <SUN.2.NOV.1997.215039.0500.>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 21:50:39 -0500
Reply-To: chandran at tidalwave.net
To: "Advaita (non-duality) with reverence" <ADVAITA-L at TAMU.EDU>
From: Ram Chandran <chandran at TIDALWAVE.NET>
Organization: Home Personal Account
Subject: Re: What we write
Comments: To: "Advaita (non-duality) with reverence" <ADVAITA-L at TAMU.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Gummuluru Murthy wrote:
>
> In a recent thread on "The supreme goal", Shri Vaidya Sundaram wrote
>
> >  ... My contention is that, we as list members
> > do not say or imply our own view points. We quote from authorities
> > and scriptures ... I think saying that members say so is not true at all.
>
> I hesitate in accepting this fully. Often I expressed my understanding of
> the analysis of the great achAryAs like Shri Shankara. Also, quite often,
> I expressed my understanding of a matter. Is it necessary to have a
> scriptural reference or a great acAryA's commentary all the time ? I agrre
> that if we do not follow either a great teacher's commentary/work or the
> upanishhad or gita itself, it can become a free-for-all. But, here we are
> practising advaita. Practising advaita is knowing what we are and a
> bookish or intellectual knowledge is not sufficient. I am interested in
> hearing List members' views on this.
>
> Regards
> Gummuluru Murthy
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Yadaa sarve pramucyante kaamaa ye'sya hr^di shritaah
> atha martyo'mr^to bhavatyatra brahma samashnute   Katha Upanishhad II.3.14
>
> When all the desires that dwell in the heart fall away, then the mortal
> becomes immortal, and attains Brahman even here.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Namaskar:

An anlogy can help us to focus our attention.  Suppose I go to New York
to visit the Statute of Liberty. I know that the statue of Liberty
exists somewhere!  It is ofcourse possible to go and visit the Statue of
Liberty without any maps and guidebooks. But I don't dare to do that
venture! Guide books and maps can help me to plan ahead of time about
how I can wisely devote my time in the search of the Statue of Liberty.
Prior information from experts and reviewers can help me to focus on
various important aspects of the Statue of Liberty.
        Scriptures and experiences of Sages can help us greatly to focus our
attention on the right strategy of learning! We don't want to reinvent
the wheel! This does not mean that we have no freedom to say what we
have to say or write! Fortunately, each of us have some strong and week
points and we have the opportunity to contribute and learn! The day we
are born in this world, we are curious to learn and we never find enough
time to learn all by ourselves! So far in our life, we have accepted
text books, training materials and teachers as a media for learning. For
Advaita, bookish knowledge is not sufficient but no one can say, it is
unnecssary!