Self - the pure mind?

[Allan Curry]

Namaskar

>In deep sleep even the conciousness is absent. So how can it be
>positively said that the Self alone shines during susupti?
>

Are you certain about what goes on during susupti?
Is it that you are certain consciousness is not there
or is it that you don't actually remember it now?

>Even the shruti says the Self is beyond the reaches of the senses and
>the intellect. So in the process, at a mature stage, a mystical Self
>overcomes the mind and envelopes the being, might be true, but can only
>be certified or claimed by 'experienced' beings. Whether it's just a
>modification or altered state of the mental process itself cannot be totally
>proved.

    Awareness of the deep sleep state (ie. no dreams,
    thoughts, images, etc.) does occur but I agree with you
    that even if and when its occurence is certain it still
    cannot be totally proved that it is not "just a
    modification or altered state of the mental process
    itself". Perhaps it just *seems* that there is nothing
    beyond that awareness -- no body, no world, no thought.
    If you recall, this is the exact point I was complaining
    about months and months ago. Then there came all the
    talk about the necessity of shruti to settle this kind
    of question. There is also confirmation by the guru.
    That would also do it.

    After a point I think even the most pig-headed of us
    must start to "doubt the doubter". I would like to
    apologize for having subjected this list to so many of
    my own doubts and thank all of you who have so patiently
    responded with so much more care and detail to them than
    they probably deserved.

best to all,

Allan