saguNa and nirguNa are the same

[Sankaran Kartik Jayanarayanan]

On Tue, 7 Dec 1999, Sankaran Kartik Jayanarayanan wrote:

> On Fri, 3 Dec 1999, Ramakrishnan Balasubramanian wrote:
>
> > Further, it is directly against the principle that GYAna alone
> > counteracts avidyA, since it is directly opposed to it. It
>   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > wouldn't make any sense to claim that upAsana which springs
> > from avidyA and which is not directly opposed to it, will
> > counteract avidyA.
> >
>
> What I understand from the above is that something that is within the
> realm of avidyaa cannot counteract avidyaa.
>
> [..]
>
> > equivalent. The point that bhagavatpAda is trying to make is
> > that acceptance of something called GYAna certainly implies
> > the prior acceptance of the affliction of avidyA, and so it is
> > itself within the sphere of avidyA only. All means of knowing,
> > ***including shruti***, are within the sphere of avidyA only.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>

Let me see if I've understood you (Rama) correctly now.

avidyaa is due to thoughts like "I am this (jIva)" and Shruti's teachings
such as,"You are THAT" etc. remove this avidyaa because they go contrary
to thoughts which are rooted in the ahaMkAra.

You're saying that ALL saguNopAsana stems from the thought "I am this
(jIva)" and the upAsana (worship) proceeds from this thought onto thoughts
such as "YOU are my savior" -- which in no way destroys the thought "I am
this (jIva)."

Am I correct? If so, saguNopAsana such as worship of Vishnu, Shiva as
endowed with forms, etc. cannot directly lead to salvation. I think that
is more or less obvious.

But what Anand said was that worship such as "This form that is the Lord
will save me" can aid one in identification with that form and eventually
lead to the destruction of the thought "I am this (jIva)." It is not a
direct approach, but an effective one, as this is prescribed by all
aachaaryas to common people such as ourselves.

-Kartik

--
bhava shankara deshikame sharaNam

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