Mail for Shri SwamiNarayan:From V V S Mani

[V V S Mani]

Dear Shri SwamiNarayan,
Namaskarams. Thanks for your kind reply and there has been opinions galore
about the greater bakthi and greatness of Advaita. It is really so nice to
see so many people in this age of Kali to think about God and The Philosophy.
Coming back to ISKCON, I give below some of the verses used by them:
1."vadanti tat tattva vidas
tattvam yaj jnaanam advayam
brahmeti paramaatmeti
bhagavaan iti sabdyate"
With this they infer and explain as" though the Absolute Truth is realised
in the above three forms, the Bhagavan form is the supreme . The impersonal
realisation and the Paramatma realisation are inferior  according to them.
2.Bhagavad Gita ( 14.27)
Brahmano hi pratisthaaham
amrtasyaavyayasya ca
saasvatasya ca dharmasya
sukhasyaikaantikasya ca
The translation of Srila Prabhupada is as follows: "And I am the basis of
the impersonal Brahman, which is mimmortal, imperishable and eternal and is
the constituional position of ultimate happiness".
Is Brahman the basis of everything or The Lord is the basis of Brahman ? I
donot know sanskrit and so I cannot understand the meaning of the verse myself.
This verse is also used by iskcon to push their point that  the Baghavan
feature of The Lord is the superior.
Also, they refer to the Gita Mahatmya
ekam saastram devakii putra geetam
eko devo devaki putra eva
eko mantras tasya naamaani yaani
karmaapy ekam tasya devasya sevaa.
 "Let there be one scripture only, one common scripture for the whole world,
let there be one mantra, chanting the holy names of the lord, and let there
be one work only, the service of the Supreme Personality of Godhead."
One thing I feel is whether we want Jnaanaa or Bhakthi, without Bhakthi ,
neither of them is achieved and hence Bagavad Bakthi is a must. One may do
atleast some of the prescribed karmas(like Sandhya worship) though things
like PanchamahaYagnams etc. in different parts of the world ( why, even if
we are India) are so difficult. So  I feel , doing  the minimum Karmas like
Nithyam and Naimithigam and along with this NamaUtchaaranam of The Lord
which is prescribed for this age of Kali may be ok.
AS I read in Dhaivathin Kural etc. , if The Lord Wills us to get
AdvaithaMoksha, let It come or if It does not come , that is also ok. Now,
the duty is to keep striving for Bagavad Bakthi and first tring to get
Siddha suddhi.
So , as for getting lot of people to do NaamaUtcharanam of The Almighty,
iskcon is doing great work, according to me. But the only problem is the
constant criticism of Advaita and the Advaita Acharyas which is irritating.
Also, they donot advocate doing sandhya vandanam etc, saying they are
ritualistic. Not everybody has become a complete Bhaktha or Jnaani to
renounce all karmas and be in a state where no karyam is required.There are
so many points like this due to their not following the scriptures in the
truesense and selecting only a few things to go this path.
Anyway, I am sorry if I have written anything offensive to anybody. I just
felt like sharing my thoughts.
Venkatasubramani.
At 09:35 AM 04/18/2000 -0700, you wrote:
>--- V V S Mani <vvsmani at EMIRATES.NET.AE> wrote:
>.They also
>> cite quite a few verses from BagavadGita and Shrimad
>> Bagavatham to
>> substantiate their argument.I will send you those
>> verses if you are interested.
>Dear Shri Mani,
>Now that this thread has picked up very relevent
>points for the  understanding  of Krishna Conciousness
>for what it is made to be by Iskonists ( I understand
>they have already split themselves into distinct
>groups) It will be nice if you can post those verses
>to this List along with your own comments on the same.
>
>Hari Om!
>
>Swaminarayan.
>
>
>
>You Yahoo!?
>> >Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites.
>> >http://invites.yahoo.com
>> >
>> >--
>> >bhava shankara deshikame sharaNam
>> >
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>> >
>>
>> --
>> bhava shankara deshikame sharaNam
>>
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>
>__________________________________________________
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>Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites.
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>
>--
>bhava shankara deshikame sharaNam
>
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--
bhava shankara deshikame sharaNam

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>From ADVAITA-L at LISTS.ADVAITA-VEDANTA.ORG Sat Apr 22 01:02:27 2000
Message-Id: <SAT.22.APR.2000.010227.0500.ADVAITAL at LISTS.ADVAITAVEDANTA.ORG>
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 01:02:27 -0500
Reply-To: List for advaita vedanta as taught by Shri Shankara
        <ADVAITA-L at LISTS.ADVAITA-VEDANTA.ORG>
To: List for advaita vedanta as taught by Shri Shankara
        <ADVAITA-L at LISTS.ADVAITA-VEDANTA.ORG>
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <jaldhar at BRAINCELLS.COM>
Subject: Re: Mail for Shri SwamiNarayan:From  V V S Mani
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.20000421163719.00679f1c at emirates.net.ae>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Fri, 21 Apr 2000, V V S Mani wrote:

> Dear Shri SwamiNarayan,
> Namaskarams. Thanks for your kind reply and there has been opinions galore
> about the greater bakthi and greatness of Advaita. It is really so nice to
> see so many people in this age of Kali to think about God and The Philosophy.
> Coming back to ISKCON, I give below some of the verses used by them:
> 1."vadanti tat tattva vidas
> tattvam yaj jnaanam advayam
> brahmeti paramaatmeti
> bhagavaan iti sabdyate"
> With this they infer and explain as" though the Absolute Truth is realised
> in the above three forms, the Bhagavan form is the supreme . The impersonal
> realisation and the Paramatma realisation are inferior  according to them.

My correspondent quoted the same verse.  My mind boggles as to how someone
could conceive of such a tortured interpretion.

I posted a correct translation
and a translation of the next shloka which they suspiciously omit a
couple of days a go in the message "two shlokas from the Bhagavata Purana"
Here they are again:

Vadanti tat tattva-vidastattvam yajjnanam advayam brahmeti
Paramatmeti Bhagavan iti sabdyate || 11 ||

tacchradadhadhaanaa munayo jnaanavairagyayuktayaa |
pashyantyaatmani chaatmanaam bhaktyaa shrutagrheetaya || 12 ||

The knowers of the ultimate principle (tattva) call the ultimate
principle that which is non-dual Jnana, some call it Brahman, some
Paramatma, some Bhagawan. Those faith-filled munis who have bhakti
filled with jnana and vairagya and understanding of the shastras see that
tattva in their own selves.


> 2.Bhagavad Gita ( 14.27) Brahmano hi pratisthaaham amrtasyaavyayasya
> ca saasvatasya ca dharmasya sukhasyaikaantikasya ca The translation of
> Srila Prabhupada is as follows: "And I am the basis of the impersonal
> Brahman, which is mimmortal, imperishable and eternal and is the
> constituional position of ultimate happiness". Is Brahman the basis of
> everything or The Lord is the basis of Brahman ? I donot know sanskrit
> and so I cannot understand the meaning of the verse myself. This verse
> is also used by iskcon to push their point that the Baghavan feature
> of The Lord is the superior.

Pratishtha is translated as basis or foundation or even as seat or
home.  The sense of all these meanings is the location of one object with
another.  So Bhagawan is sayinh that He is that Parabrahman is within
him.  We have no problems with such an interpretation.  We however go one
step further and say that we the individual jivas are the pratishthan of
Brahman.  This shloka neither confirms or denies this view.

As to whether Saguna Brahman is superior to Nirguna Brahman, if they are
one and the same being as this shloka indicates, it is a silly question
isn't it?

> Also, they refer to the Gita Mahatmya
> ekam saastram devakii putra geetam
> eko devo devaki putra eva
> eko mantras tasya naamaani yaani
> karmaapy ekam tasya devasya sevaa.
>  "Let there be one scripture only, one common scripture for the whole world,
> let there be one mantra, chanting the holy names of the lord, and let there
> be one work only, the service of the Supreme Personality of Godhead."

A mahatmya is a form of arthavada called phalashruti which is basically a
form of advertising.  It is meant to extol the virtues of a particular
shastra or tirth or Devata to increase our faith in it.  It is not meant
to be taken as an injunction.  If the ISKCONites literally think there
should only be one shastra then why do they also claim to follow the
Bhagawata and the Padma Puranas etc.?  In  fact there are are many
mahatmyas which exhort us to do many different things.  They must be taken
together as a whole (after all Vedvyasa who was an avatar of
Vishnu Bhagawan composed 18 puranas) One cannot just take some sentences
out of context.

> One thing I feel is whether we want Jnaanaa or Bhakthi, without Bhakthi ,
> neither of them is achieved and hence Bagavad Bakthi is a must.

Unfortunately one of the reasons arguments of people like the Harekrishnas
can stand is because there are many would-be Advaitins who completely
misinterpret the teachings.  In our sampradaya the importance of Bhakti
has always been emphasized.

> One may do
> atleast some of the prescribed karmas(like Sandhya worship) though things
> like PanchamahaYagnams etc. in different parts of the world ( why, even if
> we are India) are so difficult. So  I feel , doing  the minimum Karmas like
> Nithyam and Naimithigam and along with this NamaUtchaaranam of The Lord
> which is prescribed for this age of Kali may be ok.

> AS I read in Dhaivathin Kural etc. , if The Lord Wills us to get
> AdvaithaMoksha, let It come or if It does not come , that is also ok. Now,
> the duty is to keep striving for Bagavad Bakthi and first tring to get
> Siddha suddhi.
> So , as for getting lot of people to do NaamaUtcharanam of The Almighty,
> iskcon is doing great work, according to me. But the only problem is the
> constant criticism of Advaita and the Advaita Acharyas which is irritating.
> Also, they donot advocate doing sandhya vandanam etc, saying they are
> ritualistic. Not everybody has become a complete Bhaktha or Jnaani to
> renounce all karmas and be in a state where no karyam is required.There are
> so many points like this due to their not following the scriptures in the
> truesense and selecting only a few things to go this path.

In the Kali yuga peoples knowledge of dharma is diminished.  But Dharma
itself hasn't changed it is sanatana and time and place have no bearing on
it (except where Dharmic precepts themselves acknowledge place and time.)

If the Harekrishnas want to chant the names of Bhagawan that is fine with
us (Shankaracharya has written a bhashya on Vishnusahasranama.)  If they
recommend it to the ignorant people of the Kali yuga, that too is
fine.  But if they think it is a replacement for the obligatory karmas set
forth in the shastras, they are guilty of the same kind of atheism as the
Buddhists.

It seems to me that you need to stand up to these people.  You should not
allow their lies and misinterpretations to go on unchallenged.

--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at braincells.com>

--
bhava shankara deshikame sharaNam

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