Antiquity of Advaita Vedanta (was Re: An Open Letter to All)

[Vidyasankar Sundaresan]

nanda chandran <vpcnk at HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:

>epistemology. They concentrate on the subject of the validity of the
>pramAnas - the means of knowing. An ontological reading on these texts
>naturally winds up in wholescale misinterpretation.

Which is precisely why one should not read the Mahayana texts as implying an
ontological absolute. And one should not read an implication of a substratum
on which negation takes place. Mahayana epistemology does not need such a
substratum. More about ontology and epistemology in another post.

>And if you read the chapter in the MulamAdhyamika KArika where he examines
>pratitya samutpAda, he says all that is dependently originated are in
>reality, pure and calm - the anti thesis of shUnya.

If nirvANa is SUnya, and nirvANa is also pure and calm, why is purity and
calmness the antithesis of SUnyatA?

>Not so. JayarAshi is not the run of the mill ChAravAka. He is an absolute
>nihilist who denies the validity of *all* pramAnas. In his
>Tattvopaplavasimha, he devotes a whole chapter to deny perception as a
valid
>pramAna.

That is interesting. In which case, it would perhaps be wrong to call him a
cArvAka in the first place.

>So why does GaudapAdAchArya say that you need "being", to even give meaning
>to the four fold negation? Isn't he trying to point out that for the
>MAdhyamika to be logically consistent, he needs to be absolutistic?
>

You don't seem to understand. This is a subtle criticism of Madhyamaka, and
precisely because its adherents by and large refuse to accept an absolutism.

Let us leave ontology and epistemology and absolutism and relativism aside
for a while, and look at how Gaudapada and Sankara treat Madhyamaka thought.

If as you claim, Nagarjuna himself accepts the absolutistic interpretation,
there are only two possibilities with respect to Gaudapada.

1. Later Buddhists shied away from Nagarjuna's absolutism. Gaudapada
   tried to show these later Buddhists that their own logic demands
   an absolutism, in order to be consistent. In other words, he told
   the Buddhists of his day to return to Nagarjuna. Strangely enough,
   he did this in a Vedantic text.
2. Gaudapada either completely misunderstood Madhyamaka thought, or
   borrowed it wholesale.

As for Sankara's criticism of the school in his brahmasUtra bhAshya, there
is only one possibility. If, on your showing, the Madhyamaka does accept an
absolutism, Sankara's criticism that it does not, must have been based on a
complete misunderstanding of that school. If you have a different way of
understanding these texts, do enlighten us.

To be continued,
Vidyasankar

--
bhava shankara deshikame sharaNam

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>From ADVAITA-L at LISTS.ADVAITA-VEDANTA.ORG Thu Jun  8 15:13:12 2000
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Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 15:13:12 +0530
Reply-To: List for advaita vedanta as taught by Shri Shankara
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From: "H.B.Dave" <hbd at DDIT.ERNET.IN>
Subject: Re: Kathopanishad
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S. V. Subrahmanian wrote:

> Looking at the contents below, it is interesting to note that a verse with a
> similar refrain is also found in the TaitirEya upnishad:
>
> bhEshAsmAd vata pavate bhEshodeti suryaha
> bhEshAsmAd agnisca indrasca mruthyur dhavati panchama iti ||
>
> Can anyone tell as to why the Rishis have chosen these five in both places
> to explalin the same theme.  Is there anything significant about the choice
> of these 5 things (vAyu, surya, agni, indra and mruthyu) ?
>

An interesting question. I notice that you say "these 5 things" and not  "these
5 gods". Good. I shall be brief (open to further discussion, if thought worth
it) :

Brahma  seems to be matifested via a certain hierarchy, out of which 5 things
(as you put it) are given here :
Surya -- represents the awarer (experient) in the sva.h state, i.e., equivalent
to Anandmaya Kosha or the most abstract level experient, what we would call
chidaabhaasa; (it is also used to represent the aprameya Atma, but not here in
these two slokas); this also corresponds to Para level of Vak;

Vayu -- represents the awarer in bhuva.h state, equivalent to Vij~nanamaya
kosha, at mid level, corresponds to Pashyanti level of Vak;

Agni -- represents the awarer in bhuu.h state, equivalent to Manomaya Kosha, at
lowest level, corresponding to Madhyama Vak;

Indra -- represents the ever present Ego,  Ahamkara, the "I" (except the I in
nirvikalpa state), it is present in all the three states bhuu.h, bhuva.h and
sva.h;

mrutyu -- also called yama, represents the concept of Time (and space) and not
death; (death is only a symptom of Time); mrutyu can also be interpreted as
Fundamental Ignorance, which make a jeeva see the world as non-atma, (but not
here).

As will be noticed from the above, these five refer to the states through which
the Creation, as far as a jeeva is concerned, takes place. The shlokas say that
all these states work due to authority of Brahma. (Ref. Yakshaakhyana in
Kenopanishad)

I hope it helps!

-- Himanshu



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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML>
S. V. Subrahmanian wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>Looking at the contents below, it is interesting
to note that a verse with a
<BR>similar refrain is also found in the TaitirEya upnishad:
<P>bhEshAsmAd vata pavate bhEshodeti suryaha
<BR>bhEshAsmAd agnisca indrasca mruthyur dhavati panchama iti ||
<P>Can anyone tell as to why the Rishis have chosen these five in both
places
<BR>to explalin the same theme.  Is there anything significant about
the choice
<BR>of these 5 things (vAyu, surya, agni, indra and mruthyu) ?
<BR> </BLOCKQUOTE>
An interesting question. I notice that you say "these 5 things" and not 
"these 5 gods". Good. I shall be brief (open to further discussion, if
thought worth it) :
<P>Brahma  seems to be matifested via a certain hierarchy, out of
which 5 things (as you put it) are given here :
<BR>Surya -- represents the awarer (experient) in the sva.h state, i.e.,
equivalent to Anandmaya Kosha or the most abstract level experient, what
we would call chidaabhaasa; (it is also used to represent the aprameya
Atma, but not here in these two slokas); this also corresponds to Para
level of Vak;
<P>Vayu -- represents the awarer in bhuva.h state, equivalent to Vij~nanamaya
kosha, at mid level, corresponds to Pashyanti level of Vak;
<P>Agni -- represents the awarer in bhuu.h state, equivalent to Manomaya
Kosha, at lowest level, corresponding to Madhyama Vak;
<P>Indra -- represents the ever present Ego,  Ahamkara, the "I" (except
the I in nirvikalpa state), it is present in all the three states bhuu.h,
bhuva.h and sva.h;
<P>mrutyu -- also called yama, represents the concept of Time (and space)
and not death; (death is only a symptom of Time); mrutyu can also be interpreted
as Fundamental Ignorance, which make a jeeva see the world as non-atma,
(but not here).
<P>As will be noticed from the above, these five refer to the states through
which the Creation, as far as a jeeva is concerned, takes place. The shlokas
say that all these states work due to authority of Brahma. (Ref. Yakshaakhyana
in Kenopanishad)
<P>I hope it helps!
<PRE>-- Himanshu</PRE>
 </HTML>

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--
bhava shankara deshikame sharaNam

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