[Advaita-l] Contradictions between Shankara and his disciples

S Jayanarayanan sjayana at yahoo.com
Tue Dec 30 16:55:23 CST 2003

--- kuntimaddi sadananda <kuntimaddisada at yahoo.com> wrote:
> --- S Jayanarayanan <sjayana at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > Your position is: plurality is perceived by the jIvanmukta (JM),
> but
> > he
> > doesn't accept the plurality as a reality. 
> > 
> > I feel: the JM doesn't perceive plurality at all in the first
> place.
> > Why? Because perception of plurality is a mental cognition, and the
> JM
> > has attained the state of manonAsha, where there is no mind and
> > therefore no mental cognition. 
> Karthik - I donot think that is true.  Is Shankara realized soul or
> not.
>   Does he communicate with words and thoughts or not.

"To the realized person, there is no one to teach." -- Ramana Maharshi

We are talking specifically about the *perception of a jIvanmukta*. The
question is whether or not the JM perceives diversity. The answer is an
emphatic "NO!". The GYAnI sees nothing but Brahman, where there is no
diversity, no communication, no thoughts. It is we, the ignorant, who
see the realized person BEHAVING AS THOUGH he were communicating to us
with words.

So the answer to your question is: Shankara does not perceive
diversity, but we, due to our ignorance, attribute the
body-mind-relationship to him. 

In 'Day by Day with Bhagavan', D. Mudaliar once casually mentioned in
the presence of RM that a GYAnI may walk and talk like an ordinary
person. RM then responded, "Do you see the GYAnI acting that way, or
does the GYAnI see himself as acting that way?", implying thereby that
the GYAnI *does not* see himself as doing anything at all. 

The point of view is crucial in advaita VedAnta -- from the viewpoint
of the GYAnI, there is no world, but from the viewpoint of the aGYAnI,
there is a world which has persons who are capable of teaching him the
truth about the Self.

> Mind is nothing
> but thought flow. For JN what is lost is the notinal mind with all
> misconceptions.  The objective mind and the body and intellect stays
> as
> equipments. 

na iha nAnA asti kiMchana . mR^ityoH sa mR^ityum gachchhati ya iha
nAneva pashyati . (KaTha U, 4.10)
"There is not the slightest difference here whatsoever. Whosoever sees
difference goes from death to death."

If the jIvanmukta sees entities separate from the Self, such as the
"objective mind" or the "body and intellect" belonging to him as
"equipment", he will certainly be subject to death after death. 

IMHO, it is a complete and fundamental misunderstanding of advaita
VedAnta to claim that the jIvanmukta perceives diversity. 

> Otherwise we will not have any adviatic teacher left -
> remember sotriyam brahma nishhTam!

The above verse from muNDaka upanishhad should NOT be interpreted as:
"A GYAnI sees a student approaching him, and communicates VedAnta to
the student by means of words." 

Rather, it should be seen from the point of view of the disciple: "The
disciple sees one who is learned in the shAstras and absorbed in the
Self, and ought to learn the truth about the Self from such a one."

>  > > 
> > > > Regards,
> > > > 
> > > > Kartik
> > 
> =====
> What you have is His gift to you and what you do with what you have
> is your gift to Him - Swami Chinmayananda.
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