[Advaita-l] RE: e-vEdAnta course

[Srikrishna Ghadiyaram]

hariH OM !!

Before you dare to call me a hypocrite, you should
atleast read my mails !! If you read with a closed
mind, you may not even understand simple English
sentences. Answer to my questions below, with
references from my posts. Then we are talking sense ..

--- "Sundaram, Vaidya (MED)"
<Vaidya.Sundaram at med.ge.com> wrote:
> Namaskaram.
> 
>  (I am trying to collate several posts from
> Srikrishna Ghadiyaram here
> ...)
> 
> > We are not looking for free service; even if I
> were to
> > look for free service, it is ABSOLUTELY
> appropriate,
> > as per the tradition of Vedanta. If I am capable,
> and
> > if I am satisfied, and if I feel gratitude for the
> > teaching and if I am motivated that my physical,
> > mental, financial contributions will serve and
> enhance
> > the services offered by the teacher to similar
> > aspirants, I will donate money, for my own
> > satisfaction. No teaching of this kind can seek to
> > collect a minimum fee, in the name of prescribed
> > donation. 
> [ --- ]
> > The $ 350 is not a donation, it is a FEE. If there
> is
> > genuinity, I should have donated to a US center,
> so
> > that I could save Tax. Why should I pay Uncle Sam
> for
> > reading Vedanta e-mails ? I could use my Dollars
> > fully, for the benefit of a charitable cause as
> > approved by law. Did some one think about this
> aspect
> > of Fee ? sorry, ...DONATION.
> 
> Lets see for a moment ... you want to "donate" only
> if it's tax
> deductible, and that too only "for your own
> satisfaction". 

Did I say, ""donate" only if it's tax deductible," ?

Read my sentence above, "I could use my Dollars
fully, for the benefit of a charitable cause as
approved by law "

I think, I know English enough to distinguish the
meaning of the two sentences. I trust, now you too can
!!

"Atmanastu kamaya sarvam priyam bhavati". Without
satisfaction, not even a fool will do any thing. That
is not DESIRE prompted my friend. Satisfaction is
beyond desire. I can be satisfied by feeding a hungry
man too. But, feeding a hungry robber may not give me
satisfaction. That sense of fullfillment of duty,
having exercised to your ability, you will feel
satisfaction. I am saying you can not 'extract' money
from me, but I can give out of my choice for its own
satisfaction. Otherwise, one has to regret like your
sanyasi friend who donated all the money before
becoming a sanyasi and later to be kicked out.
 
> That's not
> donation. That's quid pro quo. Same with students
> expecting a
> certificate in return ... lets not be hypocrites
> please.
> 
>

There is no hypocricy here. Just because you can not
force me to buy your argument, do not call me a
hypocrite. You can not win me like that, for I have no
fear of intimidatiion. In this context, we are not
talking of "certificate" Do not link arbitrary topics
and derive your own conclusions. Where in the above
two paragraphs referred by you, did I talk about
certificates ? Also, because you conveniently, plugged
the paragraphs from different places, they may lose
the sequence of thought and context. Please pay
attention to that. I am writing in-line, only because
of that fear. Not because I can not write independent
treatises. I want to make sense in appropriate places,
appropriately.

> [ --- ]
> > may not be
> > able to see the clarity of the sacred purpose of
> > Vedanta tradition. This is just Maya. You need to
> see
> > from the perspective of an ordinary seeker, who is
> > un-informed of the solutions of Vedanta for his
> > problems, and out of compassion you should let
> them
> > learn, as service to Narayana. It just can not be
> to
> > build larger and bigger
> > Missions/Buildings/Infrastructure etc. If the cart
> is
> > placed infront of the horse, it does not go
> anywhere.
> 
> >From the perspective of the ordinary, otherwise
> uninformed seeker, whom
> is he to believe? Any one who will give him free
> advice? And do you
> realize just how many people there are out there who
> will give lots of
> "apparently" free advice? With so many people out
> there to cheat you out
> of your money, whom would you rather trust. A
> mission that is generally
> recognized as a charitable org. which is run
> ethically, morally and
> legally? or some other ...?
> 

So, charging $ 350 will not make it more genuine or
dependable, unless you declare that to be the rule.
Also, this belief that people are out there to cheat
you and only Chinmaya Mission is there running the
business is also a superimposition by your own mind on
others. You know inspite of all the kinds of people,
Sanatana Dharma is as strong. Infact the direct method
of teaching as referred by Sri Jaladhar is the
testimony for this. To seek education from a worthy
teacher who is in turn a worthy student of a worthy
teacher. None can go wrong. Even for Chinmaya Mission,
it runs now only on the name of Swami Chinmayananda
who inturn gained credibility by referring to
Parampara only.
 
> > be so. But, my primary objection to this vision to
> run
> > a 24 e-mail, 1 year certificate course in Vedanta
> for
> > $ 350 MINIMUM donation. It is no way different
> from a
> > scam Internet University degree/certificate.
> 
> But you are ok with spending money to buy a book
> which has 24 chapters? 
> 

yes/may be, for $ 10 for what it is worth. 

> And why are you against this "mininum" donationg
> thing? You seem
> surprised and seem to have a sense or righteous
> indignation about it all
> ... have you been to the upanyaasams or "hari
> kathas" as they are also
> called, where the organizers expect people to donate
> a minimum amount?
> This is to defray the costs of the organization. The
> world is run on
> money. Even the Vedas recognize this. That's exactly
> why there is so
> much material on the vedas devoted to the karma
> kaanda and kaamya karma.
> 

"righteous indignation" is positive I guess. It is not
unjustified anger. There is an unjust attempt to sell
Vedanta and justify forcefully, so it naturally
diasppoints those who favor its growth.

Oh!! Yes, in the US current going rate for a satsanga
is $ 10 to $ 15. I know how much many patrons donate
when they attend yajnas. (atleast, I suppose). An
e-mail is no match for a the costs of arranging a
Satsanga I guess.

You are fooling someone if you say that in India they
ask for a minimum donation for 'hari katha' or
'upanyasam'. Yes, in the US such programs are
expensive to arrange, so they say 'suggested donation'
for programs. Did the eVedanta course say 'suggested
donation' ?

You are conveniently mixing up things with karma kanda
of vedas. I thought you are the one advocating the
current-times concepts, why are you talking about
karma kanda here ? What is the relevance. 

Yes, Vedas talk about purushartha and also say that by
doing the rites enjoined in the karma kanda dharma,
artha, kama can be fulfilled. In which Veda is it said
that we should charge a minimum fee for teaching
Vedanta as times have changed ?? Please clarify my
ignorance.

> > change the technique, Vedanta need not become a
> 'high
> > priced' item, there by cutting off millions of
> people
> > from even the chance of having an exposure to this
> > teaching which is not 'yours', and you aspire to
> build
> > a mission on your own name, where the original
> authors
> > and thinkers have not claimed even a mention. Does
> the
> > first lesson recognise and declare that the ideas
> are
> > not their own ??? Does it release right to
> copy-right
> > ?? No, instead it hinders even an honest seeker
> from
> > pursuing. I will detail below.
> 
> What are you talking about?? Have you not seen books
> published by the
> mission that is subsidised so that every one can buy
> it? How do you
> think they get the money for that?? 

I have already mentioned in a separate mail, that I
want to know which books are subsidised by Chinmaya
Mission. The "Transformations" book published during
the Centenary Mission was $ 70 (or more). Normally, I
would buy any book if I like. But, this book I
hesitated to buy. (I buy books in tens/hundreds and
read many, OK.) You know that it did not sell in 100s,
so it is now reduced to $ 30 or so. You compare
similar coffe-table editions from Divine Life society
or Ramanasramam or Ramakrishna Mission  - they are
priced $ 10. The Ganesha CD and Gita CD are priced $
30 or so. How many would care to buy them at that
price. You know that all of them are reduced now. I
know you advocate this pricing-to-market approach.
Hope we learn from these failures.

>By running
> course like this!! And
> selling the same book in the US in hard cover and
> jazzy persentation to
> people who can afford it for $50 while giving it for
> 50 rupees in India
> under a paperback edition.
> 

Then why do you have to sell an Indian edition in US
prices ??

> > We are not discussing about Swami Tejomayananda's
> > credentials here. Your/other's repeated mention of
> > such points will only ascribe incorrect motives
> > against me or others who are against your views.
> So,
> > let us not side-step the issue at hand.
> 
> Well, you are the one who thinks this money is going
> to be used to build
> a new mission in his name. You brought it up. Don't
> fault the other side
> for pointing it out and defending the authors or the
> mission
>

You are just silly. Either you do not read patiently
and understand or you have no control on your mind
at this time out of your emotional association with
the mission.

Portions of my original mail are given below, along
with Sri Ramachandrans points for which I raised my
concern. Read the message in entirity, and do not take
portions out abruptly, and find a special meaning.
----------------
"> We have been participating using thee cyber space
> Satsangh (Advaita-L and
> Advaitin lists) to learn and understand the virtues
> of  our scriptures such
> as the Vedas, the Upanishads, Brahmasuutras and
> Bhagavad Gita and to enhance
> our understanding of  Vedanta. Though we are aware
> of the pitfalls of
> learning Vedanta through the means of email
> correspondence, this is not an
> end to our Sadhana. The members who participate in
> the cyber satsangh are at
> different levels of spiritual maturity and they
> sincerely want to learn from
> each other. Spiritual seekers look for various means
> of achieving internal
> peace and each one approach it differently. This is
> explained beautifully by
> the Tamil saying of the existence of more than three
> hundred and thirty
> millions of gods (muppathumukkodi).

As I elaborated above, I am not against using a new
technology tool to provide additional help, service to
the seeking masses. (are there masses ??) Use all the
tools and techinques available, but under the strict
rules of Giving-and-Taking_what comes, and not
taking-and-giving (do you see ?) established by this
great tradition of Bharat. Just because you want to
change the technique, Vedanta need not become a 'high
priced' item, there by cutting off millions of people
from even the chance of having an exposure to this
teaching which is not 'yours', and you aspire to build
a mission on your own name, where the original authors
and thinkers have not claimed even a mention. Does the
first lesson recognise and declare that the ideas are
not their own ??? Does it release right to copy-right
?? No, instead it hinders even an honest seeker from
pursuing. I will detail below.
"
-----------------

I said in my original mail: 

"there by cutting off millions of
> people
> > from even the chance of having an exposure to this
> > teaching which is not 'yours', and you aspire to
> build
> > a mission on your own name, where the original
> authors
> > and thinkers have not claimed even a mention." 

I have explained enough to suggest you that you can
not justify the fee $ 350 for Vedanta course in the
name of building a mission in your name (say Chinmaya
Mission, Adi Sankara Trust, Chinamaya Fouondation
etc.). Building/Organising/Promoting the Mission is
incidental. Teaching Vedanta is not the tool for it.
It is teaching Vedanta which may/should call for some
setup, so services are effective. Not the cart first,
please. That is all I am saying.


Repeating myself:

This means and refers to the CIF and AdiSankara
foundation and even Chinmaya Mission and other details
that Sri RamChandran explained else where. I said it
is irrelevant to this $ 350 course, whether you do it
or not, none questions. I said the teaching does not
belong to inventions of Chinmaya Mission or others,
yes, the delivery is your own "unique" as pointed by
Sri Jaladhar also. There are other free Vedanta
teaching sites on-line. So, I said do not charge $ 350
so that you can build a mission/building (no person 
like 'Swami T Mission' is intended or referred here,
Is it clear, enough ?)

In this paragraph just above your above comment we are
debating about quality and intention of Swami T, and I
said there is no doubt or discussion of this topic. 

Please read the original comments of Sri Ramachandran
and my reply in context. I am reproducing here, for
your ready reference:
---------------
>  The purpose of
> learning Vedanta to get
> rid of our ignorance and ignorance does exists at
> all levels. I don't
> believe that Swami Tejomayanandaji has ever claimed
> that by completing the
> e-mail course, the students can get rid of all their
> ignorance. I have
> attended several of Swamiji's lectures on Gita,
> Vedantic texts and Tulasi
> Ramayan. He is a learned scholar of Vedanta studied
> under Swami
> Chinmayandaji and Swami Dayanandaji of Arsha Vidya
> Gurukulam. Swamiji is
> quite brilliant in his exposition and well versed in
> Sanskrit, Marathi,
> Hindi and English. 

We are not discussing about Swami Tejomayananda's
credentials here. Your/other's repeated mention of
such points will only ascribe incorrect motives
against me or others who are against your views. So,
let us not side-step the issue at hand.
---------------------

You conveniently mixed the two out of context, and are
using desparaging comments against me.

PLEASE SHOW ME, WHERE IN MY ORIGINAL MAIL I SAID :
"this money is going
> to be used to build
> a new mission in his name." MEANING THAT I MEAN THAT
- SWAMI T IS COLLECTING MONEY TO BUILD A MISSION IN
HIS NAME.  EVEN IN THE SENTENCES I WROTE THERE IS NO
PERSONAL REFERENCE TO ANY PERSON LIKE SWAMI T. 

THE WHOLE EFFORT I HAVE BEEN MAKING IS TO MAKE SURE
THAT YOU DO NOT SIDE TRACK FROM THE MAIN ISSUE AND
ABANDON THE RESPONSIBILITY TO PROPER JUSTIFICATION.
YOU HAVE SUCCEEDED IN THAT. IF YOU SINCERELY WISH TO
ANSWER, ANSWER YOUR COMMENTS ALONG SIDE ORIGINAL
POSTS. THEN YOU WILL KNOW HOW  OUT OF CONTEXT, AND
DISPARAGINGLY YOU TALK AND WRITE.

> I think over all I have laid out what I see as
> hypocrisy, and I don't
> think I need to go into further details of the many
> more mails on this
> subject.
> 

I suggest you have the courage to go through all the
points and prove my hypocricy, only by establishing
that you understand the things in context. You can not
claim to have 'seen hypocricy' and run away from
facing reality. I hope you understand. Let this forum
of learned people decide from their own perspective
who is hypocritical.

> bhava shankara desikame sharaNam,
> Vaidya.

Om Namo Narayanaya !!

Srikrishna

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