[Advaita-l] Re: Advaita-and iswara
drganesh at vsnl.com
drganesh at vsnl.com
Sat Jan 31 11:03:15 CST 2004
ADVAITA AND ISWARA
Upanishads negate superimpositions that empirically exist. It is not that iswara is set up as some sort of fictitious entity merely to serve the higher purpose of negation. Brahman is declared by the sruthi to be the efficient and the material cause of the objectively existing world. When Brahman is spoken of in the context of the causality of the world, it is Brahman as iswara that is referred to. The negation of iswaratva in Brahman is concomitant with the negation—or to be more precise the ascertainment of the mithyatva—of the relation of the effect to the material cause. For when the effect, the world is found to be mithya, the material and the efficient causality of Brahman too is discovered to be mitya. But even then, at this level of the ultimate truth [paramarthah], it is less than accurate to say ‘Iswara is negated’. Rather it is the iswaraness of Brahman, the aspect of rulership etc that are relational to the creatorship of a real world, that ultimately ‘disappear
s’ leaving the the unconditioned awareness-being, the parabrahm, appearing as, or being only as apparently transformed [vivartha] into the universe.
Thus in statements about superimposition and negation we should not downplay the iswaratva aspect of para Brahman and mistakenly believe that iswara is just a fiction posited for purpose of negation. To do so will ignore the undeniable existence of the vyavahara world [mithya though it proves to be on enquiry]. Thus the understanding of Advaita requires the correct appreciation of the domains of vyavahara and paramartha, and the making of a proper demarcation between each, while yet being able to appreciate, the seeming paradox of two simultaneous ‘levels’, or perspectives, of truth.
Hence, gnanis like sankara while writing vedantic texts and while starting teaching always invoke the grace of the lord at the beginning and this is done for the sake of completion of their intended job. Every work they do is a vyavahara even when the content of the text is ‘jeeva-iswara ikyam’; and in the vyavaharic reality iswara’s grace is needed. That is why sradha and bakthi is stressed even in vedantic study and in fact getting a right guru and the appropriate set up is possible only with grace of lord because vedantic study is also a vyavahara only.
The liberated person continues to transact in the empirical world that is the manifestation of iswara, at the same time having the immediate knowledge that the untransformed, and thereby acosmic [nisprapancha], parabrahman, is the highest truth.
Dr s.ganesh
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Date: Friday, January 30, 2004 10:30 pm
Subject: Advaita-l Digest, Vol 9, Issue 26
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> Today's Topics:
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> 1. Re: doubt (V. Krishnamurthy)
> 2. Re: Maya and Pralaya (latha vidya)
> 3. New member introduction: Stephanie Stean (Jaldhar H. Vyas)
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 16:12:15 -0800 (PST)
> From: "V. Krishnamurthy" <profvk at yahoo.com>
> Subject: [Advaita-l] Re: doubt
> To: advaita - L <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> Message-ID: <20040130001215.67708.qmail at web40911.mail.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Namaste, Krishnan-ji raises the following four fundamental
> questions.
>
> The crux of Advaita as I understand it, is that God is
> impersonal. That he
> is formless,attributeless, nameless etc. 1. If so, who are
> Vishnu, Brahma, Siva and why do we celebrate their forms?
> 2. In reality if its maya which makes us think that they
> are Gods and we are mortals, then once we have the
> knowledge that we are them(tat tvam asi), should we still
> pray?
> 3. For isn't it also true that Shankaracharya believed
> that Knowledge alone is sufficent for salvation? Again,
> please do correct me
> if I am wrong.
> 4. In short, would it be corrrect to deduce that the Great
> Acharyas like Shankaracharya found happiness within
> themsleves and composed hymns &
> glorified the deities only for the benefit of the common
> people ?
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Krishnan-ji,
> I shall try to answer these with the little knowledge and
> experience that I have. There could be other answers,
> better answers, and more convincing answers. To seek these
> answers is the business of a group such as ours. So let me
> venture to give my own. Please pardon me if the post turns
> out to be rather long. The questions are wonderfully
> fundamental and I have to compose the answers through a
> fundamentally wonderful path.
>
> I first take questions 2 and 3, because I think the crux of
> the matter is here. Both questions harp on the theme that
> there is a ?knowledge? out there (as if there is a library
> of books) and once we ?possess? it then that is the end of
> it! The naive assumptions that this theme makes is at the
> bottom of all the doubts.
>
> Shankaracharya did establish that ?it is only through jnAna
> that one is released from the cycle of births and deaths?.
> But in translating this ?jnAna? as the English word
> ?knowledge? we fall into the trap of thinking it is
> book-knowledge that we are talking about. No. We are not
> talking about book-knowledge. Such knowledge is called
> ?indirect knowledge? (Skt: paroksha-jnAna). When the
> Acharya says ?jnAnAdeva mokshaH?, he means that moksha is
> possible only by ?aparoksha-jnAna? (meaning, ?Direct
> knowledge? or Experiential knowledge).
>
> Now the Acharya had this ?aparoksha-jnAna?. How do I know
> it? Only by inference! In modern days Ramana Maharishi had
> this ?aparoksha jnAna?. But just because great people like
> Shankara and Ramana had ?aparoksha jnAna? that does not
> mean they had no thirst or hunger. In fact both were
> jIvan-muktas. But they behaved in the outer world just as a
> normal human being with extremely sAtvic character will
> behave. You may ask: ?Then, what is the meaning of ?I am
> Brahman (aham brahmAsmi)?? If they were brahman, and they
> knew it, not only knew it but ?were? brahman, why did they
> have thirst and hunger?? This is where we have to
> understand the difference between the ordinary people?s
> understanding of ?I am brahman? and the paroksha-jnAna that
> such great men had of being brahman.
>
> You and I think ? pardon me if the word ?you? hurts; it is
> my way of referring to the ordinary layman ? that ?being
> brahman? means no thirst or hunger. Well, no thirst or
> hunger for whom? For brahman. Because in brahman, there is
> no second thing and so there is no question of ?its?
> desiring something, like food or water. But the human body
> ? mark the word ?body? carefully; it includes ?mind and
> intellect? also ? in which you see a Shankara or a Ramana,
> does have thirst and hunger. The body drinks water, eats
> food, speaks to others, prays to God, and does all the
> things you would expect a satvic charactered person would
> do.
>
> So now comes your million dollar ?doubt?! Why does
> Shankara, being brahman, eat food and pray to God? I have
> posed your question in such a way that the fallacy will
> come out. It is the placing of the words ?being brahman?
> that is wrong. I will explain.
>
> Shankara as brahman does not need food or eat food or pray
> to God. So is the same thing with Ramana. It is the BMI of
> Shankara and Ramana that eats food and also prays to God.
> Shankara and Ramana know the difference between their BMI
> and their own svarUpa which is brahman. Only you and I mix
> the two. Shankara and Ramana know they are brahman and they
> live in that brahman-being. So they are not drinking water
> or eating food or praying to God. But we ? you and I ?
> think that Shankara is eating food, while it is their body
> that is eating food and drinking water. We mix their BMI
> with their brahman-being. But they don?t do any such
> mixing. And that is why they are great and incomprehensible
> to us; and that is why, we keep on discussing whether a
> jIvan-mukta eats or not!
>
> Now you can yourself compose answers to your questions 1
> and 4. Brahma and Vishnu and Shiva are only physical
> manifestations of the Absolute Reality that is brahman.
> Just as you and I are. Except that, they not only know they
> are such manifestations but can switch back and forth to
> their Brahman-being and their physical forms.
> Theoretically, this is the answer. But to the question:
> ?whether they exist, like you and me existing?, I have no
> answer except to tell you that great people like Shankara
> have behaved as if they exist. That is enough of a proof
> for me as far as question 1 is concerned.
>
> To Question 4 Gita says that such great people, though they
> are established in brahman, act in the world as if ? mark
> the words ?as if? ? they belonged to the world and as if
> they are ?attached?. They do it for ?loka-sangrahArtham?
> that is, for the benefit of the welfare of the world.
>
> ?But the world does not exist in advaita? ? I hear somebody
> repeating this, at this point. This is the standard error
> we all fall into. First of all ?the world does not exist in
> advaita? is not a precise statement. Secondly, the mixing
> of the Absolute Level and the phenomenal level is wrong
> logic. When the BMI?s of great people like Shankara and
> Ramana act, that action is at the phenomenal level. But
> they themselves are at the Absolute Level. They have no
> confusion about the two levels; because at one level they
> act and at the other (Paramarthik ? absolute) level, there
> is no action, no agent of action, no purpose of action .
> But we mix the two levels when talking about them and end
> up in unending ?contradictions?.
>
> PraNAms to all seekers of Truth.
> profvk
>
>
>
> =====
> Prof. V. Krishnamurthy
> My website on Science and Spirituality is
> http://www.geocities.com/profvk/You can access my book on Gems
> from the Ocean of Hindu Thought Vision and Practice, and my
> father R. Visvanatha Sastri's manuscripts from the site.
> Also see the webpages on Paramacharya's Soundaryalahari :
> http://www.geocities.com/profvk/gohitvip/DPDS.html
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 07:04:11 +0000 (GMT)
> From: latha vidya<lathavidya at yahoo.co.in>
> Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Maya and Pralaya
> To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta
> <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> Message-ID: <20040130070411.76481.qmail at web8006.mail.in.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> venkat ramanan krishnan <krish_venks at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> 2)That being the case, can we say that Bhakti is more like a
> psychological
> effect on the soul? with no actual changes taking place anywhere.
> Favour of
> deities, boons and demons can be metaphoraically compared to a
> person who
> thinks something is wrong with him, conjures up a doctor mentally,
> thinks he
> is being cured by the doctor(a deity if the doctor gives a sweet
> medicine, a
> demon if the doctor gives him a sour medicine, but both for his
> own good),
> and finally realizing that there was nothing wrong in him, that
> there was no
> doctor, that everything was a hallucination(maya)
> Or, can we say that the soul starts from the point of veneration
> of some
> deities which possess some ideals (that the soul thinks is not in
> itself),
> and then proceeds to higher ideals(deities) till finally reaching
> a point of
> saturation, where it has everything and realizes that there is
> nothing more,
> and that it had everything in it all along.( knowledge, truth and
> infinity).
> All this is essentially psychological for the soul, since the soul
> has been
> in that state(brahman) all along and only doesnt think so.
>
> Hari Om,
> Namaste.
>
> yes, verily so. This is known as "adhyaaropa apavaada", ie,
> putting blame on something which is blemishless purely out of our
> ignorance. Another anology can be - the floor is clean and I put
> some mud over it and try to sweep it clean!
>
>
> Finally, what is meant by pralaya? How does Advaita explain the
> creation and
> destruction of the universe philosophically? Why does the Brahman
> delude
> itself into thinking that it is many, time and again, and that its
> many
> parts are imperfect each trying for perfection ?
>
>
> If we believe Creation has taken place, we need to believe there
> is Pralaya too! For a realized soul, there never was any creation
> and hence no pralaya ever!
>
> Everytime when I fall asleep and enter the deep sleep state
> nothing exists for me. Isn't this pralaya? Again when I wake up I
> see the world. Isn't this the creation?? This is the nitya srishti
> and nitya pralaya.
>
>
> Namaste,
>
> Latha Vidyaranya
>
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> From: =?iso-8859-1?q?latha=20vidya?= <lathavidya at yahoo.co.in>
> Subject: Re: RES: [Advaita-l] Re: Tantra
> To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta
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>
> Martone <martone at terra.com.br> wrote:
>
> Namaste,
>
> I learned to see this point about killing the brothers and the
> elders in
> Gita in a symbolical way. In fact, the Gita doesn´t mean to really
> kill the
> relatives but the relatives are a symbol for our bad habits and
> "defects" of
> the ego. It is called "brothers and elders" because our "defects"
> of ego (
> greed, lust, vanity, selfishness) are so dear to us, that killing
> them hurts
> as if we were killing our brothers and elders.
>
> Greetings to all.
>
> Cecilia
>
>
>
> Cecilia,
>
> You have given a very wonderful, simple explanation. Thanks.
>
> Namaste,
>
> Latha Vidyaranya
>
>
>
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> Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Re: doubt
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>
> "V. Krishnamurthy" <profvk at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> If they were brahman, and they
> knew it, not only knew it but ?were? brahman, why did they
> have thirst and hunger?? This is where we have to
> understand the difference between the ordinary people?s
> understanding of ?I am brahman? and the paroksha-jnAna that
> such great men had of being brahman.
>
> Hari Om,
>
> Namaste.
>
> The whole world is an ignorant projection of my mind. "Vishwam
> darpana drishyamaana nagari tulyam"! Out of this ignorance is born
> the knowledge that Shankara and Ramana were Brhman and I am fool,
> ignorant and dumb. The need of the moment is to realise that
> everything is included solely in my perception. There is no world
> bereft of my perception. The moment I realise this Truth, me and
> my perception dissolve!
>
> Namaste,
>
> Latha Vidyaranya
>
>
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> Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Re: Tantra
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> "Hence for us ordinary mortals who want to 'renounce action', just
> renouncethe desire for fruit of that action. Indulge in 'nishkaama
> karma' and that
> will purify the antahkarana."
>
> In today's competitive world, would it be OK to renounce the
> desire for
> fruit of our actions? Would it not be better to try whole-
> heartedly for
> success and then dedicate the outcome(whether success or failure)
> to the
> Almighty?
> (List members please forgive me for going out of the scope of this
> thread)
> -Venkatesh
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "latha vidya" <lathavidya at yahoo.co.in>
> To: "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta"
> <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2004 10:07 PM
> Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Re: Tantra
>
>
> > Hari Om,
> > Namaste.
> >
> > I think there is a difference between "renunciation of action" and
> "inaction". When there is an obstacle in way of our performing an
> action, we
> are usually vulnerable to take the path of least resistance -
> inaction! Why
> do it at all when we can be safe not performing the action?! We
> let someone
> else take up the responsibility of doing it. This is cowardice,
> flinchingfrom responsibility! I think Arjuna was in this state of
> mind when he said
> he would go away from the battle field.
> >
> > Whereas renunciation of action comes into picture when you have
> shed all
> 'abhimaana' and 'moha' - rather they are shed by themselves when one
> realises the dream-like quality of this 'reality'. Here
> renunciation is not
> another action where there is 'kartritva' of renouncing and
> 'bhoktritva' of
> relief. Kartritva and bhoktritva would be redundant in this case.
> >
> > Renunciation should not be considered as an easy way of escaping
> fromresponsibilities. Rather it should happen like "Oorvaarukamiva
> bhandhanaath"- like how a ripened cucumber automatically severes
> from the
> stem. Before its ripening, plucking it from the stem would cause
> injury both
> to the cucumber and to the plant. Similarly our renunciation will
> happenwhen our antahkarana is fully ripe with knowledge. No effort
> need be put to
> forcibly renounce, in which case it can not at all be called
> renunciation. A
> sanyaasi who keeps thinking that he has left his wife and children
> back home
> is deceiving himself.
> >
> > Hence for us ordinary mortals who want to 'renounce action',
> just renounce
> the desire for fruit of that action. Indulge in 'nishkaama karma'
> and that
> will purify the antahkarana.
> >
> > I am sorry if the list members feel that my replies to the
> letters here
> are impertinent. I am no scholar. Nor can I follow any of the
> "Bhaashyaas".I just express my thoughts aloud here. I hope I am
> excused.>
> > Namaste,
> > Latha Vidyaranya
> >
> >
> > Raghavendra N Kalyan <kalyan7429 at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> > Namaste,
> >
> > Dear Jaldhar, I really liked your answer. However, given a
> choice between
> "performing action" and "renunciation of action", is it not better
> to choose
> the latter when the former involves doing something "wrong(?)"
> even if the
> "wrong(?)" thing is the only alternative? Of course, this is the
> basic issue
> on which the bhagavad gIta is based, but I never really got
> Krishna's point
> here. Can you or someone else please explain? I would appreciate
> it if you
> use the example of the mahAbhArata war itself. For instance, what
> would be
> so wrong if Arjuna renounced worldly life instead of fighting the war?
> Thanks.
> >
> >
> >
> > Then why is it mentioned at all?
> > Because there may well be situations when the only course of
> action is the
> > "wrong" thing. In which case if it has to be done it should be
> done in
> > the best way possible.
> >
> > The war of Kurukshetra is an example. To kill your brothers and
> respected> elders is terribly terribly wrong. Yet this is what
> Krishna Bhagavan asks
> > Arjuna to do in the Gita. Of course all avenues of peace are
> explored> first. the Pandavas agree to give up half the kingdom.
> Krishna Bhagavan
> > Himself goes on a diplomatic mission to Duryodhana. However when
> war is
> > finally declared it must be fought to the death. There is no
> room for
> > cowardice or equivocation in the performance of ones duty.
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
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>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 11:31:15 -0500 (EST)
> From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <jaldhar at braincells.com>
> Subject: [Advaita-l] New member introduction: Stephanie Stean
> To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta
> <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> Message-ID:
> <Pine.LNX.4.58.0401301130320.9863 at diku.intranet.braincell.com>
> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
>
> My name is Stephanie and I am a graduate student. I am interested in
> Advaita epistemology and I study knowledge in various religious
> traditions.
> I look forward to learning more about Advaita.
> Thank you.
>
> ------------------------------
>
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> End of Advaita-l Digest, Vol 9, Issue 26
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