[Advaita-l] Waking & Dream - An objective outlook

[bhaskar.yr at in.abb.com]

Humble praNAms Sri Karthik prabhuji
Hare Krishna

Thanks for your kind feed back & observations prabhuji.  First of all I'd
like to brief you about the background of this mail.  This mail triggered
out of discussions we've been having in advaitin group about the topic
*The Real & Unreal*.  In this discussion  the reality has been equated with
the waking world & its cognition which prompted me to share my
understanding  of trikAla abhAdita satyatva of ultimate based on analytical
view of avasthAtraya prakriya.   Hence this mail mainly focussed on
universal experience of ours. This is not refutation of  pUrvamimAmsaka-s
nor dvaita vAdins' siddhAnta.  Prabhuji, since sofar I've not studied
pUrvamImAmsa sUtra-s,  I dont think I am qualified enogh to comment
anything on it.  If you could permit me, I'd like to share my observation
on your comments :

Karthik prabhuji:

I observe that in your entire reply, there is no mention of the
ontology of the Vedas at all. This is typical in all the advaita
arguments on reality that I've seen so far.

bhaskar :

No prabhuji, as said earlier, the avasthAtraya prakriya is one of the most
important methodology adopted by shankara sampradAyavida-s to show that our
svarUpa is trikAla abhAdita & waking & dream worlds have relative
existence.  Objective analysation of avasthA are purely based on logic &
our day-to-day experience & equally applicable to even those who donot
believe in shAstra prAmANya.

Karthik prabhuji:

Consider: I do not perceive any of the verses of the sAma Veda. In
fact, I have never ever perceived all of the verses of the sAma Veda in
my waking, dream, or deep-sleep states. In my waking, dream, and deep
sleep states, the sAma Veda recitals I have heard occupy an
infinitesimal part of my experiences. Can I now, using arguments
similar to what you have advanced below, take the sAma Veda as being
virtually non-existent? That was a rhetorical question, the answer is
obviously - NO!

bhaskar :

This categorical answer NO is from either waker or dreamer correct
prabhuji.  So, for a waker vEda prAmANya has the validity in waking world &
in dream, a vedAdhyAyi dreamer has his noble feelings about apaurushEya
scriptures as a waker.  And in deep sleep where both waker & dreamer are
absent, this vEda is avEda.  This is what bruhadAraNyaka shruti saying
while talking on sushupti.  The existence & its perceptions, experiences
have time & space bound reality but our svarUpa is dEsha kAlAtIta prabhuji.
Having said this I am not denying the practical utility of our socalled
waker & his waking world, but in tattva nirNya we have to treat this waker
him/herself as vishya (object) only.

Karthik prabhuji:

Right at the beginning of their philosophy, Jaimini and KumArila make
an important statement intersecting both ontology and epistemology (see
pUrva mImAmsA verse 1.1.12):

MOMENTARY PERCEPTION DOES NOT IMPLY MOMENTARY EXISTENCE

If the above statement is not accepted, it is _impossible_ to establish
the ontology of words (and by corollary the ontology of the Vedas). In
answer to my above query as to the existence of the sAma Veda, Jaimini
and KumArila would reply, "You momentarily perceive the sAma Veda, but
it does not imply that the sAma Veda exists momentarily. In fact, the
sAma Veda exists eternally and is perceived by you momentarily.
THE VEDAS EXIST INDEPENDENT OF YOUR PERCEPTION OF THEM."

bhaskar:

As said above, I am not eligible to comment on this.  Only thing I can say
is the independent existence of our perception can be attributed to vEda
pUrusha not vEda-s per se.

Karthik prabhuji:

All I'm saying is this: claiming that the arguments you have given
below are the same ones that Shankara used to convince the mImAmsakas
is untenable.

bhaskar :

prabhuji, as said above, I didn't have mImAmsaka-s in my mind while
drafting that mail.  But shankara & his paramaguru Sri GaudapAdAchArya have
did this objective analysation of avasthA & say no avastha-s whatsoever to
our svarUpa.  And in this regard shankara says this jAgrat is as good as
svapna.  Kindly refer shankara's ItarEya shruti bhAshya, wherein he says
nanu jAgaritaM prabhOdarUpatvAt na svapnaH! naivaM *svapna yEva* katham??
paramArtasvAtmaprabhoda abhAvat, *svapnavat asadvastu darshanAchha*.  So,
prabhuji waker his perception of waking world & resulting experience are
all just like dream since this waker also does not have paramArtha jnAna &
is as good as dreamer.

Karthik prabhuji:

If Shankara had given these arguments, the mImAmsakas
woul've ignored him completely and gone about their business of
spreading pUrva-mImAmsA.

bhaskar :

prabhuji, frankly speaking, I dont see any valid reason for this..when
avastha traya is  anubhava gamya, we have to take this prakriya into
consideration for paramArtha nirNaya.  Otherwise, why mAndukya shruti & sri
gaudapAdAchArya in mAndukya kArika gave special place to this avasthA traya
prabhuji?? kindly clarify.

Karthik prabhuji:

In fact, every argument that you have given below strikes at the very heart
of the ontology of the Vedas. I'm certain that there are explanations
within the advaita tradition for the ontology of the Vedas, but don't buy
the claim that a "definition
of reality" would convince the mImAmsakas.

bhaskar :

prabhuji, ontological issue of the vEda-s holds water as long as removing
our avidyA but they donot teach our svarUpa as such & such thing.  Hence we
cannot say vEda-s are exclusive source of knowledge of brahman like we say
with regard to svarga-naraka, deva-s etc.  Here for our svarUpa nirdhAraNa
not only sruti but anubhava also has the equal importance.  shankara
clearly says in sUtra bhAshya that anubhavAsanutvAt.  After all we are
doing jignAsa on apramEya svarUpa of ours ...yato vAcho nivartante aprApya
manasa saha (taitirIya)...... that which speech cannot express but which
itself expresses speech (kEna shruti)...shruti purports should be in line
with our anubhava or intuitive knowledge.  avasthA traya prakriya forms the
basic platform to understand shruti pratipAdya siddhAnta of Atmaikatva.


Kindly correct me if I said anything wrong prabhuji.


-Kartik

Humble praNAms onceagain,
Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
bhaskar