[Advaita-l] RE: Advaita-l Digest, Vol 32, Issue 7

Rammohan, Chandrashekar Chandrashekar.Rammohan at Arbella.com
Wed Dec 7 13:28:57 CST 2005
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Respected Advaita Abhyasis,

In the context of Gita, Lord Krishna speaks about the importance of
Swadharma. There is a reference to it in Chapter 3 as well as in Chapter 18
:

Sreyaan Swadharmo Vigunahah, Paradharma Swanusthithaat
Swadharmae Nidhanam Sreyahah, Paradharmo Bhayavahah.

My question is 
How do we determine our Swadharma, is it based on our caste ( As in if we
are born a Brahmin, we are supposed to learn and teach, while if we are born
a Vaishya, we are supposed to be traders in business) OR
Is it based on interests ?? Are there any indications or clues to know that
we have identified our Swadharma correctly ?

Is peace of mind an indirect indication of Swadharma ??

Regds

Chandrashekar





-----Original Message-----
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To: advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
Subject: Advaita-l Digest, Vol 32, Issue 7


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Today's Topics:

   1. RE: My introduction - ViShNuu suukta (Neelakanta, Nataraja)
   2. Re: Re: Love molecule (sunil bhattacharjya)
   3. Re: Re: Love molecule (Amuthan Arunkumar R)
   4. Re: Re: Love molecule (bhaskar.yr at in.abb.com)
   5. Re: Re: Love molecule (murali mohan)
   6. Re: Re: Love molecule (murali mohan)
   7. RE: Re: Love molecule (praveen.r.bhat at exgate.tek.com)
   8. Re: Re: Love molecule (Krishnan Sundaresan)
   9. Re: Re: Love molecule (Sanjay Srivastava)
  10. Re: My introduction - ViShNuu suukta (Abhishek RK)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 14:20:26 +0530
From: "Neelakanta, Nataraja" <nataraja.neelakanta at sap.com>
Subject: RE: [Advaita-l] My introduction - ViShNuu suukta
To: "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta"
	<advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
Message-ID:
	<B244143AC07FE74D8218D9F6E0EDF44A6AB178 at inblrle40.blrl.sap.corp>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"

Dear Dr.Yadu,

Sorry for the late reply. The meanings of the mantras are as follows :

1. Ato devaa --- May the Gods protect us from that portion of the earth
whence Vishnu put his steps aided by Seven meters. 2. Idam Vishnu --- Vishnu
traversed this universe; 3 times he planted his foot and the whole universe
was collected in the dust of his footsteps 3. Treeni padaa --- Vishnu, the
uninjurable and the protector of the universe. Stepped 3 steps, there by
preserving the sacred Laws.

These are the bhavaarthas. It clearly says about Vaamanaavataara. If you
look at the third mantra, it says about sacred laws. Sacred laws in the
context means all the dharma karyaas and karmaas we would do. The karma
could be Agnihotra, Oupaasana and the like. There is a specific reference to
Agnihotra in this mantra, so that, it mandates us to worship Agni in one or
the other forms. That's why we have Agnikaarya for Brahmachaaris, Oupaasana
for Grihasthaas and if possible to keep Agnihotra. This will make the person
really strong in his karmaas.

To support this statement, there is another quote in Taittiriya Brahmanam ,
Ashtama prapaathaka :

Yagnou y Vishnuhu |

Meaning - By doing Agni upaasana, one will become Vishnu himself ! What a
statement !

Yagneshwaraya namaha,

BR,
nattu

-----Original Message-----
From: advaita-l-bounces at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
[mailto:advaita-l-bounces at lists.advaita-vedanta.org] On Behalf Of Yadu
Moharir
Sent: Monday, 05 December 2005 10:09 PM
To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta
Subject: RE: [Advaita-l] My introduction - ViShNuu suukta

Namaste Neelakanta Nataraj-Ji:
   
  It is extremely creditable to what you already accomplished.
   
  Could you please comment on the medhaatithi kaNva - viShuu suukta
(1.22.18)
   
  What I have been trying to understand the significance of vaamanaavataara
and why we worship vishNuu and how this relates to the vaasiShTa's viShNuu
suukta that you have quoted.
   
  ato\' de\`vaa a\'vantu no\` yato\` viShNu\'r vicakra\`me |\\
pR^i\`thi\`vyaaH sa\`pta dhaama\'bhiH || {1}{022}{16} 
  i\`daM viShNu\`r vi ca\'krame tre\`dhaa ni da\'dhe pa\`dam |\\ samuu\'Lham
asya paaMsu\`re || {1}{022}{17} 
  triiNi\' pa\`daa vi ca\'krame\` viShNu\'r go\`paa adaa\'bhyaH |\\ ato\`
dharmaa\'Ni dhaa\`raya\'n || {1}{022}{18} 
   
  Thank you and look forward for your enlightening incites.
   
  Regards,
  
Dr. Yadu
  
"Neelakanta, Nataraja" <nataraja.neelakanta at sap.com> wrote:
  Yagneshwaraaya Namaha !

Please do not call me Sir, since I am too young to be called so. Its always
due to the efforts my parents put to keep us in this line and ofcourse,
Esha's blessings. Its our sincere responsibility to learn Vedas :

Vedah shivah shivo vedaha vedaadhyaayi sadaashivaha|
Tasmaat sarva prayatnena vedameva sadaa japeth||

Ok, here it goes. There are much better learned people in this list, but
still to the benefit of others, I would like to quote few things from Vedas
:

In Rigveda, Vishnu suktha (7th mandala 99th suktha), 2nd mantra is as
follows:

Nate vishno jaayamaano na jaato deva mahimnah paramantamaapa| Udastabhna
naakamrushwam bruhantam daadartha praachim kakubham pruthivyaah | 

Meaning - There is no one alive who knows the Vishnu mahimaa. One who knows
about it in the past will not be born , one who comes to know about it will
not be alive (attain mukti).

In the next Suktha, Maharshi Vasishtha says :

Tantvaa grunaami tavasamatavyaan ...

Atavyaan means a layman. Vasishta, in praise of lord, says that, he
(Vasistha) is a layman. When Mahaan rishi like Vasishtha says so, can we
think that we know something ! It's a great thought to ponder over.

Parameshwaraaya Namaha.

-nattu



-----Original Message-----
From: advaita-l-bounces at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
[mailto:advaita-l-bounces at lists.advaita-vedanta.org] On Behalf Of kuntimaddi
sadananda
Sent: Monday, 05 December 2005 5:14 PM
To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] My introduction



--- "Neelakanta, Nataraja" wrote:

Sir - I admire your discipline to study the scriptures at such an young age
while involved actively in the worldly duties. My pranaams to you and to
your parents and elder brother. I am sure this list serve will get the
benefit of your active participation.

Hari OM!
Sadananda 



> Dear Satwiks,
> 
> Thank you all for providing me an opportunity to become a member of 
> this mailing list. My name is Nataraja Neelakanta, and I was 
> introduced into
> the group by Mr. Abhishek RK. Here goes my introduction:
> 
> Age : 23
> Country : India
> Background and interests:
>


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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 10:04:54 +0000 (GMT)
From: sunil bhattacharjya <skbhattacharjya at yahoo.co.in>
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Re: Love molecule
To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta
	<advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>, aparyap at yahoo.co.in
Message-ID: <20051207100454.56767.qmail at web8607.mail.in.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya,
  
  Probably you do not know that Shri Madhvacharya had proved his guru  wrong
and the guru then accepted Shri Madhvacharya as his guru. This  happened in
case of Shri  Ramanujacharya also to some extent. Lord  Buddha discarded the
teachings his guru Allara Kalama. In the ancient  past also there were
gurus, who in the modern sense, were exposed. So  there were many
traditional ajnani gurus in the past as are as present.  So please do not
make any sweeping disparaging comment on all the  modern gurus.
  
  Regards
  
  Sunil Bhattacharjya

Amuthan Arunkumar R <aparyap at yahoo.co.in> wrote:  namo nArAyaNAya!

dear shrI sunIl bhaTTAchArjya,

--- sunil bhattacharjya 
wrote:
>
> ... Not all  traditionally trained gurus are
> enlightened. gurus.
>   

yes, but the difference is that a traditionally
trained vidvAn will never delude himself to be j~nAni
unless he has realized the goal himself. in other
words, if he has not realized the truth, he will know
that he hasn't. 

many modern age guru-s give lot of importance to yoga
alone and neglect the later stages. yoga can give
chitta shuddi, but it will not give j~nAna. yoga is
just a karma and it is the definite stand of advaita
that mokSha is not attainable through any karma, but
only through j~nAna. it is very much possible to
attain a state akin to hiraNyagarbha or something of
that sort where the mind is not destroyed but one
acquires a lot of powers. thus, while there may be
great yogi-s among the present age guru-s, not many of
them will qualify to the lofty ideal of a j~nAni. a traditionally trained
vidvAn will always compare his level with those of his guru-s and he will
never dare to proclaim himself to be a j~nAni. on the other hand, if he
attains perfect mano nAsha, the sense of duality will automatically drop
out. so, as long as the manas exists, he will behave with vinaya towards his
guru-s and always transfer any praise showered on him to his guru. this is
the standard tradition in india as we all know. (this is similar to what
shrI sa~njay pointed out)  

as shrI vidyAsha~Nkar pointed out, there are
innumerable ways to detect the fakes. it is
unfortunate that some charlatans and in other cases,
misguided yogi-s have made a business out of this by proclaiming themselves
to be jagadguru-s. the presence of many of these new-age guru-s only reveals
the spiritual ignorance of the populace at large. 

and regarding the issue of shrI ramaNa maharShi,
comparing Him with the modern age guru-s is like
trying to estimate the worth of gold with mere stones
(this is my opinion. i'm sorry if it offended
someone). shrI ramaNa maharShi belongs to different
category altogether. even shrI ramaNa maharShi
advocates the necessity of a guru and in His own case,
He maintained that aruNAchala (= His own self) was His
guru.

a rather humorous account of meeting with a fake who
proclaimed himself to be a guru (and who believed that
he was one!) is narrated by paul brunton in his book
'a search in secret india'. brunton has very stringent
checks to find out the genuineness of the self
proclaimed guru-s and it's quite funny to see how
brunton finds out that the innumerable 'guru-s' he met
were fakes :-)  

as long as there are people to get cheated, there will
be those who will cheat. it's best to stay away from
these and stick to the time tested traditional guru-s.
but, if the traditional community accepts a modern age
guru as genuine, there's no harm in following him.  

vAsudevaH sarvaM,
aparyAptAmR^itaH. 


Amuthan Arunkumar R,
Final year, B.Tech/M.Tech Dual Degree,
Dept. of Aerospace Engg., IIT Madras.


  
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Message: 3
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 12:05:40 +0000 (GMT)
From: Amuthan Arunkumar R <aparyap at yahoo.co.in>
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Re: Love molecule
To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta
	<advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
Message-ID: <20051207120540.81130.qmail at web8406.mail.in.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

namo nArAyaNAya!

dear shrI sunIl bhattAchArjya,

--- sunil bhattacharjya <skbhattacharjya at yahoo.co.in>
wrote:
>
> ... So  there were many traditional ajnani
> gurus in the past as are as present.  So please do
> not make any sweeping disparaging comment on all the
>  modern gurus.
>   

my point is that it is a lot more probable to find
fakes among modern guru-s than among the traditional
ones. my comments were on the major lot of the
moderns, not all of them. (and btw, i never claimed
that all traditional guru-s were j~nAni-s at any point
in my mail.)

i'm sorry if my statements offended you.  

vAsudevaH sarvaM,
aparyAptamR^itaH.  

Amuthan Arunkumar R,
Final year, B.Tech/M.Tech Dual Degree,
Dept. of Aerospace Engg., IIT Madras.


		
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Message: 4
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 18:39:44 +0530
From: bhaskar.yr at in.abb.com
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Re: Love molecule
To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta
	<advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
Message-ID: <OF60E80B43.758B6F25-ON652570D0.0046660D at in.abb.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


my point is that it is a lot more probable to find
fakes among modern guru-s than among the traditional
ones.

praNAms
Hare Krishna

>From these discussions, it is really interesting to note that somehow 
>we do
not want to have *living jnAni* among us!!...most of the time jnAna being
awarded to jnAni posthumously!!  When bhagavan krishna *living*,  most of
the people around him thought that he is an ordinary cowherd boy!! Is this
non-acceptability of living jnAni  coz. of our prejudices about jnAni-hood &
jnAni's activities ?? BTW,  if at all there is a jnAni  who is unfortunately
still *living* with us ...how he should behave & how he should live??  Just
curious to know the answer  :-))

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
bhaskar




------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 05:35:45 -0800 (PST)
From: murali mohan <murali_mohan at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Re: Love molecule
To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta
	<advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
Message-ID: <20051207133545.24166.qmail at web52414.mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Dear all,
  I think all this classification such as traditional and modern is against
the spirit of Advaita. Why go by time periods when time itself is within
maya!! The sufis/mystics were radicals who did not go by "tradition" and
believed in direct experience. Anyone who can make things clear in current
circumstances with current examples can be appreciated. People such as
Deepak Chopra, Ramdas etc  has been instrumental in bringing a lot of
intelligent persons, who otherwise would not have gone near any traditional
guru or scripture either for lack of time or disbelief, interested in
spirituality by explaning things in a language they can undrestand and
appreciate.. Not everyone will have the time to go through the ardous
traditional method of learning for years sitting with a guru. Of course one
should beware of fakes but that is true in any field at any age. 
  Amuthan Arunkumar R <aparyap at yahoo.co.in> wrote:
  namo nArAyaNAya!

dear shrI sunIl bhattAchArjya,

--- sunil bhattacharjya 
wrote:
>
> ... So there were many traditional ajnani
> gurus in the past as are as present. So please do
> not make any sweeping disparaging comment on all the
> modern gurus.
> 

my point is that it is a lot more probable to find
fakes among modern guru-s than among the traditional
ones. my comments were on the major lot of the
moderns, not all of them. (and btw, i never claimed
that all traditional guru-s were j~nAni-s at any point
in my mail.)

i'm sorry if my statements offended you. 

vAsudevaH sarvaM,
aparyAptamR^itaH. 

Amuthan Arunkumar R,
Final year, B.Tech/M.Tech Dual Degree,
Dept. of Aerospace Engg., IIT Madras.



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Message: 6
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 05:55:46 -0800 (PST)
From: murali mohan <murali_mohan at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Re: Love molecule
To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta
	<advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
Message-ID: <20051207135546.32313.qmail at web52413.mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Another point is that all these traditional learning were "traditionally"
made available only to people with the "right" birth and lineage and was
denied to many. But for the mystics and "modern gurus" many would have known
about bliss and brahman and advaita. 

murali mohan <murali_mohan at yahoo.com> wrote:  Dear all,
I think all this classification such as traditional and modern is against
the spirit of Advaita. Why go by time periods when time itself is within
maya!! The sufis/mystics were radicals who did not go by "tradition" and
believed in direct experience. Anyone who can make things clear in current
circumstances with current examples can be appreciated. People such as
Deepak Chopra, Ramdas etc has been instrumental in bringing a lot of
intelligent persons, who otherwise would not have gone near any traditional
guru or scripture either for lack of time or disbelief, interested in
spirituality by explaning things in a language they can undrestand and
appreciate.. Not everyone will have the time to go through the ardous
traditional method of learning for years sitting with a guru. Of course one
should beware of fakes but that is true in any field at any age. 
Amuthan Arunkumar R wrote:
namo nArAyaNAya!

dear shrI sunIl bhattAchArjya,

--- sunil bhattacharjya 
wrote:
>
> ... So there were many traditional ajnani
> gurus in the past as are as present. So please do
> not make any sweeping disparaging comment on all the
> modern gurus.
> 

my point is that it is a lot more probable to find
fakes among modern guru-s than among the traditional
ones. my comments were on the major lot of the
moderns, not all of them. (and btw, i never claimed
that all traditional guru-s were j~nAni-s at any point
in my mail.)

i'm sorry if my statements offended you. 

vAsudevaH sarvaM,
aparyAptamR^itaH. 

Amuthan Arunkumar R,
Final year, B.Tech/M.Tech Dual Degree,
Dept. of Aerospace Engg., IIT Madras.



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Message: 7
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 19:27:03 +0530
From: <praveen.r.bhat at exgate.tek.com>
Subject: RE: [Advaita-l] Re: Love molecule
To: <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
Message-ID:
	
<710FB619630ACA4AAFC21470050023865BE634 at ap-bang-m03.global.tektronix.net>
	
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1"

praNAm all,

We've had all sorts of people at all times: genuine and fake, but thats
besides the point when anyone mentioned *tradition* on this thread. By
tradition, it need not mean old. It means the following that is old. So even
a modern guru, following the tradition is fine (so not posthumous as
Bhaskar-ji pointed out :) 

When we bring in examples of people in the past realizing without the guru,
it doesn't make them modern-aged, and necessarily doesn't mean they'd
modern-age gurus. Moreover, Maharshi has gone on record to state that his
followers have found that his teachings that came from his experiences and
Shankara's teachings are the same.

Also, what is more important is what one is looking for. Whether its
whatever is termed as "unconditional love", etc, versus what the advaita
tradition calls as *moksha*. I think it has been discussed earlier on what
this moksha/realization is defined as by different followers. So, even if a
modern guru claims to be realized, one of the best ways to accept that is by
omeone from tradition agreeing; as in the case of Ramana, by Kanchi
Mahaswamigal, unless of course looking for other "types of "unconditional
liberation".

Finally, whatever is called as tradition has given many example students for
us to look upto. How many students of non-traditional modern-age schools do
we have that claim advaitic realization (not without gurus, but with gurus
who are modern-aged)?

shivam shaantam advaitam,
--praveeN


------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 10:17:46 -0500
From: Krishnan Sundaresan <krish.sundaresan at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Re: Love molecule
To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta
	<advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
Message-ID:
	<9ed1436c0512070717k42fd00e2y99e71df01e3eca37 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On 12/7/05, bhaskar.yr at in.abb.com <bhaskar.yr at in.abb.com> wrote:
>
>
> > BTW,  if at all there is a jnAni  who is
> unfortunately still *living* with us ...how he should behave & how he 
> should live??  Just curious to know the answer  :-))
>
> Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
> bhaskar
>

This reminds of Arjuna's question in the gItA (2:54) "*sthita-prajnasya ka
bhasa* *samadhi-sthasya kesava* * sthita-dhih kim prabhaseta* *kim asita
vrajeta kim"

"How do you recognize someone who is in this (enlightened/jnAni) state,
Krishna? How does one in this state speak? How does he sit? How does he
walk?*"

Perhaps the stitaprajna verses follolwing this (2:55-2:70) are the answer.
Do all modern jnAnis pass the Lord's litmus test? Questions to ponder....

Regards
-Krishnan


--
Krishnan Sundaresan, http://www.msu.edu/~sundare2
Michigan State University, East Lansing, MI 48823, USA.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------
Excuse me for butting in, but I'm interrupt-driven...


------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 10:24:06 -0500
From: Sanjay Srivastava <sksrivastava68 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Re: Love molecule
To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta
	<advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
Message-ID:
	<6ff0a5610512070724w69403eefl969c91c20de73afa at mail.gmail.com>
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Sri Bhaskar wrote:

> >From these discussions, it is really interesting to note that somehow 
> >we do
> not want to have *living jnAni* among us!!...most of the time jnAna 
> being awarded to jnAni posthumously!!

I do not see what is the connection here. There is nothing to suggest that
getting recognition either living or posthumously is the criteria for jnAna.
There have been jnAnis like krishnAswAmi Iyer, kAnchi mahAswami, raman,
tapovan mahAraj, chinmayAnanda, tArAnanda, dayAnanda etc. who got recgnition
in their life; and there have been several others who were never known
either in life or posthumously.

On the contrary to your observation, I would argue that most of the jnAnis
we know, were recognized in their lifetime itself. Though I do not want to
suggest that it proves anything.

praNAm


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Message: 10
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 21:02:52 +0530
From: Abhishek RK <rkabhi at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] My introduction - ViShNuu suukta
To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta
	<advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
Message-ID:
	<d00b46cc0512070732w3ea11d35u170d158ea8f9f17c at mail.gmail.com>
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On 12/7/05, Neelakanta, Nataraja <nataraja.neelakanta at sap.com> wrote:
>
> To support this statement, there is another quote in Taittiriya 
> Brahmanam , Ashtama prapaathaka :
>
> Yagnou y Vishnuhu |
>
> Meaning - By doing Agni upaasana, one will become Vishnu himself ! 
> What a statement !


I had thought yajno vai vishnuh meant Yajna is verily Vishnu Himself. But
this meaning seems more proper somehow. Thanks for this nice write up.

Regards,
Abhishek

--
> bhava Sankara deSika me saraNam
>
> sadASiva samArambham SankaracArya madhymam
> asmadAcArya paryantam vande guru paramparam


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