[Advaita-l] BG 2.45: nirguNa or saguNa?

[Mahesh Ursekar]

Pranams:

Thank you for your detailed analysis of my posting and your kind words 
before every refutation of my claims would hardly cause me to feel hurt. 
However, the only reason (and I don't have your vast erudition) for claiming 
what I do is quite simple. As per my readings, Brahman can only be explained 
as 'neti, neti' - it has no attributes. Sat-cit-ananda, the swarupalakshna 
is also a mere approximation. It is the closest we can come but is nowhere 
near the real thing. This has been said by Sankara also. Now if this is 
indeed the case, then I find it very difficult to see how a Jnani can 'see', 
'hear', etc. i.e. operate in the realm of the phenomenonal world and yet 
posit something that is in the realm of the noumenon! This can happen only 
in samadhi wherein everything is shutout (breathing included) and only 
Brahman remains! In fact, everywhere in the Upanishads, it is said the when 
Brahman is realized the world disappears!

Finally, I do not see your objection to Saguna Brhaman. It is as good as 
Brahman except for the purest form of Sattva in it. It is not Sankara but I 
think Vidyaranya does claim that Isvara is not deluded by maya.
Humble pramans, Mahesh
 PS> The professor reference was really for professor Krishnamurthy, a 
person I admired a lot when I was one of his many students in an academic 
role and now in a spiritual one (even if it a bit presumptious)! ;-)


On 6/14/05, bhaskar.yr at in.abb.com <bhaskar.yr at in.abb.com> wrote: 
> 
> Pranams:
> 
> praNAms Sri Mahesh Ursekar prabhuji
> Hare Krishna
> 
> MU prabhuji:
> 
> The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that a Jnani is
> "established in (pure) sattva" (or is Saguna Brahman) rather than living 
> in
> a state wherein s/he transcends the three gunas (Nirguna Brahman).
> 
> bhaskar :
> 
> Prabhuji, then you mean to say shruti mahAvAkya-s such as *tattvamani*,
> *ahaM brahmAsmi* etc. talking about only saguNa brahman nature of jIva?? I
> dont think sage Uddalaka had taught his son ShvEtakEtu only saguNa aspect
> of ultimate nirguNa brahman when addressing *tattvamasi shvEtakEtu*...
> 
> MU prabhuji:
> 
> In fact, the only time the three gunas can be transcended is the state of
> samadhi, in which all externality is lost and only pure consciousness
> remains.
> 
> bhaskar :
> 
> prabhuji, I think you are talking about patanjali's asaMprajnaTha samAdhi
> here...but this temporary state of *svarUpa shUnyatva* is not shruti
> pratipAdita Atmaikatva jnAna...shankara's Atmaikatva darshana is not a
> peculiar strange state of coming & going like nirvikalpa/asaMprajnaTha
> samAdhi.
> 
> MU prabhuji:
> 
> Therefore, IMHO, samadhi is the ultimate state to reach in spiritual
> evolvement (sorry to disagree with you, Jaldhar).
> 
> bhaskar :
> 
> I beg to differ from this view point prabhuji, jnAni's samAdhi state is 
> not
> an inert state like of a yOgi in a nirvikalpa samAdhi...samAdhi is quite
> natural to jnAni though it appears he is in bodily consciousness & doing
> vyavahAra like others...shankara says in kArika bhAshya *samAdhiH samAdhi
> nimitta prajnAvagamyatvAt! samAdhIyatE asmin iti vA samAdhiH!! Shankara
> talks here samAdhi as transcended knowledge only & it is not any type of
> vyavahAra abhAva (absence of transaction) state. jnAni does vyavahAra with
> bhAdita jnAna (sublated knowledge) as he has the intuitive realization 
> that
> he is sAkshi to jnAtru & jnEya. shankara in sUtra bhAshya says this very
> clearly * na cha ayaM vyavahArAbhAvOvasThA viShESha nibhaddhO abhidhIyatE
> iti yuktaM vaktuM! tattvamasi iti brahmAtmabhAvasya anavasThAviShESha
> nibhaNdhanatvAt!!..
> 
> MU prabhuji:
> 
> Some points in support of the above:
> 
> 1. Sri Ramakrishna, in his gospel (pp 860) states: "A person may keep
> his or her ego even after attaining samadhi. Such a person feels either
> that s/he is a servant of God or that s/he is a lover of God. 
> Sankaracharya
> retained the 'ego of knowledge' to teach people spiritual life. The
> 'servant ego', the 'knowledge ego' or the 'devotee ego' may be called the
> 'ripe ego'. It is different from the 'unripe ego' which makes one feel 'I
> am the doer'."
> 
> bhaskar :
> 
> With all due respects to those noble souls & their 
> observations...prabhuji,
> I dont think jnAni keeps his *ego* in any form...shankara in gIta bhAshya
> says the final (antya) pramANa (shAstra-s) removes the very knowership of
> Atman. The individual soul, his/her ego, his/her doership/enjoyership all
> holds water only till the intuition dawns in its entirety. Once he 
> realizes
> his true nature there is no more identity with nAma rUpa upAdhi.
> 
> MU prabhuji:
> 
> 2. An advaitic interpretation of the Gita wherein the Lord uses the
> words like 'I' or 'Me' is interpreted as referring to the Saguna aspect
> of Brahman. Was there a greater Jnani than Sri Krishna?
> 
> bhaskar :
> 
> IMHO, as long as we see only the physical form of krishna who is preaching
> gIta to Arjuna, it is only saguNa brahman...but when it comes to *tattva*
> or *krishNatva* it is nothing but achintya, apramEya, agrAhya, kEvala
> nirguNa svarUpa of parabrahman which is yEkamEva advitIyam (one without
> second).
> 
> BTW, shankara accepts saguNatva of parabrahman ONLY in the sphere of 
> avidyA
> & emphasizes on the point that the ultimately parabrahman's nirguNa &
> nirAkAra...there is a detailed discussion in the 4th chapter of sUtra
> bhAshya about this topic.
> 
> 
> MU prabhuji:
> 
> 3. Take Vidyaranya's definition that Brahman reflected in pure sattva is
> Isvara while the same reflected in avidya, in which rajas and tamas are
> also present, is the jiva.
> 
> bhaskar :
> 
> Yes, not only jIva with rajas & tamas but brahman with pUre sattva as
> Ishvara is also under the realm of avidyA since here jIva accepts Ishvara,
> his creation & his (jivA's) separate identity excluding both Ishvara &
> srushti...
> 
> MU prabhuji:
> 
> Now Sankara's commentary on the famous two bird passage of the Munduka
> Upanishad (ref S.Radhakrishnan, Indian philosophy, vol2, pp602) says: "Of
> these two so perched, the ksetrajna occupying the subtle body, eats (i.e.
> tastes) from ignorance the fruit of karma marked as happiness and misery,
> palatable in many and diversified mode; the other, the Lord eternal, pure
> intelligent and free in his nature, omniscient and conditioned by sattva,
> does not eat; for he is the director of both the eater and the eaten. His
> mere witnessing is as good as direction, as in the case of a king". Isn't
> the Jnani being referred to as the second bird? And that makes sense, 
> since
> in the analogy, it has a body (so attributes like Saguna Brahman) and is
> not nirguna.
> 
> bhaskar :
> 
> I hope you are talking about *dvAsuparNa* maNtra here...Kindly allow me to
> look at shankara bhAshya on it...In anyway, the above observation does not
> advocate duality from the platform of pAramArthika & I do agree whereever
> in shruti brahman is objectified it is only for the sake of teaching the
> ultimate nirguNa nature of parabrahman since nirguNa cannot be objectified
> with any means...Hence shruti has adopted unique method of teaching the
> nirguNa as *nEti, nEti* ...Anyway, I'll check the bhAshya & come back to
> you with more details prabhuji.
> 
> MU prabhuji:
> 
> All the above said, let me say that like Isvara, the Jnani is not deluded
> by maya and can transcend it at will.
> 
> bhaskar :
> 
> prabhuji, if possible can you give me the Shankara bhAshya support for 
> this
> statement.
> 
> MU prabhuji:
> 
> Professor, your thoughts on the above would be most welcome since your
> wisdom and knowledge would far exceed what my arguments try to convey.
> 
> bhaskar :
> 
> prabhuji I am not a professor, I am professionally an ordinary Account
> personnel in a company. Kindly dont think its an argument with you, I am
> also a tyro in this path of jnAna...Just I thought let me share my views
> with my fellow advaita prabhuji-s.
> 
> Kindly pardon me if I said anything wrong.
> 
> Humble pranams, Mahesh
> 
> Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
> bhaskar
> 
> 
> 
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