[Advaita-l] Re: Kundalini

[Mahesh Ursekar]

Pranams:

Badisaji, thanks so much for the enlightening references and
clarifications. They made most interesting reading.

Regards, Mahesh



On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 07:04:47 -0800 (PST), ramesh badisa
<badisa66 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> Namaste to all.
> 
> " Could you elaborate on this some more? Who will give the final
> teaching in BL?
> 
> Badisa: For verification, let us see, Br. Up. 6.2.15, where it is said that the liberated soul, having reached BL, would attain "perfection" during its very long stay at BL. The statement, Attainment of perfection, can also be verified from sri Shankara Bhasyam on this Upanishad.
> 
> Explanation: Perfection or imperfection from what? The imperfection on the part of liberated soul at BL is due to its mode of worship, when on the earth, to assume that divine is something present outside of him, to assume that it is separate from divine and to assume that absolute divine with gunas. Then what is perfection? To remove the above notions is called the perfection. How is it done? It is done by Lord Brahma by his teachings (called final liberation teaching) to the liberated souls. Mere teaching that " you (the liberated soul) are him (divine)" by Lord Brahma won't help this soul to attain the perfection (It is something similar to this. We all know and also understand that we, the souls, are nothing but divine. However, in the absence of self-realization, the understanding that " I am him or we are him" does not guarantee us to attain absolute salvation. It means that one has to experience the final truth for salvation). Then how does the liberated soul at BL aft
> er the
> final teaching would attain the perfection? This is possible only by self-realization by meditation.
> 
> " From what I have read, the birth on earth is the most valued and in fact even the envy of the Devas in Deva lok.
> 
> Badisa: Correct.
> 
> " since only a human can attain to liberation from samsara.
> 
> Badisa: If you are saying that salvation is possible only on earth while living, then it is not correct. Your understanding also contradicts even with sri Shankara's philosophy. For example, sri Shankara in his bhasyam on Brahma Sutras, mentioned attainment of salvation by two different routes in the Phala Adhyaya (4th chapter). This is in agreement with Varaha Up. 4.5 declaration. Similarly, Lord Krishna also says about it indirectly in Gita 5/5. Thus, your understanding that salvation is only attained while living in samsar is not correct 100%, but correct only 50%.
> 
> " And this liberation can occur on earth itself by the raising of the Kundalini"
> 
> Badisa: If successful in raising the kundalini while on the earth, then in that case, there is no need on the part of the soul to travel to any lokas. Instead, after the death of physical body of this successful person (jeevan mukta), the soul becomes divine immediately, and present every where at all the times, as mentioned in Gita 2/24 (sarva gatah, achaloyam). This is called immediate salvation, where the pranas (or 16 kalas) merge in himself (Pras. Up 6.5 and Br. Up. 3.2.11). Thus, the kind of liberation you are talking above is called immediately salvation, but the question asked earlier was concerned about those unsuccessful (in raising kundalini) souls that followed the devyan marg, and nothing to do immediate salvation as you are pointing out in your answer.
> 
> " What further mediation is required in BL? And for whom?"
> 
> Badisa: This is required for those souls that followed 8/24 of Gita (Devyan marg), where salvation is attained after lot of waiting at BL, at pralaya. Meditation for self-realization and to become perfection is required on the part of liberated soul at BL
> 
> " Do you think the word pralaya is wrongly used here?
> 
> Badisa: No.
> 
> " The death of a jeevan mukta cannot be called pralaya (or destruction) since such a person is not under control of death as we experience it"
> 
> Badisa: Death is same for all. The only difference is that in general, the ordinary people are afraid of death, while a jeevan mukta is not, due to his self-realization.
> 
> "He or she is the Master and can choose to discard his or her body at will and at the time of his or her choosing.
> 
> Badisa: Misunderstanding. When the time of death comes, a jeevan mukta becomes aware of it, and the ordinary mortals are not. Awareness of time of his death by jeevan mukta does not mean that he can choose to discard the physical body at will. He has to live till his prarabdha karma becomes zero to become divine. Let us refer Brahma Sutras from 4.1.13 to 4.1.19 for more understanding on this.
> 
> I think in the Upanishads, to the question, "Knowing what does one know everything?", the answer is "Brahman". So a jeevan mukta is Brahman
> 
> Badisa: No. A jeevan mukta is not a Brahman (divine). Instead, jeevan mukta has experienced that " he (soul) is him (divine)", and the 'He becomes him" only happens after the death of the physical body. Thus, Brahma Sutra (BS), 4.1.19 says that he becomes one with divine after the death of physical body. In Penglenlo (sp? - sorry)Upanishad 3.5, it is said that a jeevan mukta, after the death of physical body, would attain vedehi mukti. A jeevan mukta cannot be divine. Because, he still has mind in one of the forms, namely, arup (that is the sarup form of mind is destroyed by self realization, and thus arup form is remaining). This arup form is also destroyed after the death of physical body, and the soul would attain vedehi mukti (Muktiko Up. 2.8 and Annapurna up. 4.2). The destruction of mind at the time of absolute salvation is also mentioned in Pras. Up. 6.5.  All this clearly indicates that jeevan mukti is not an absolute state of salvation, meaning that advaitam has not
> yet
> taken place in the state of jeevan mukta but only realization of advaitam has taken place for him. A jeevan mukta attains absolute salvation once his prarabdha karma becomes zero (Muktiko up. 2.1). Videhi mukti is also called kaivalya mukti (Muktiko up. 1.16). Also in Mahopanishad 2.11, it is said that after the death of physical body, the soul of jeevan mukta attains vedehi mukti. If jeevan mukti itself is the state of absolute salvation, then there is no need for all the above Upanishads to declare that the soul of jeevan mukta will achieve vedehi mukti after death of the physical body. In other words, the understanding that jeevan muki is absolute state of salvation (and to assume that a jeevan mukta is divine) will go against the teachings of all Upanishads. In brief, the understanding based o the above Upanishads, is as: Jeevan mukti is not absolute state of salvation as he still has mind in the form of arup. Jeevan mukta is not called the divine, but self-experienced p
> erson.
> Jeevan mukta will achieve absolute salvation and thus become divine only after the death of his physical body.
> 
> "… as illustrated in the famous verse sung for a realized guru (excuse the grammar): Gurur Brahma, Gurur Vishnu, Gurur DevoMaheshwara, Gurur Sakshat ParaBrahma Tasmai Sri Guruveynamah"
> 
> Badisa: Who is this guru? He is a living person, who experienced his divine nature of the soul. Right? Who is Brahma, or Vishnu or Maheshwara? They are divine? There is only one divine, and thus let us assume that they are three different aspects of the same divine. That means we have two entities here. One is living guru and the other is divine. Right? If living guru is divine in absolute sense, then how come he is localized at one place? And why he has to eat or die at later stages? The divine experienced guru will become divine only after the death of his physical body, as mentioned in BS 4.1.19. But we all need to remember to worship guru as a divine form because he experienced the divine.
> 
> Namaste.
> 
> 
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