[Advaita-l] RE: self-realization/salvation

[ramesh badisa]

“By placing limits on Brahman the jiva is also placing limits 

on his jnana.  Concepts such as time (pralaya) and space (Brahmaloka) 

still apply”

Badisa: Since the liberated soul stays at BL (space) and then merges later in nirgun Brahman at pralaya (time), it means that as per your above reply, this soul has also limited gyan. Here, my questions for you are: 1. quote any reference to show that this soul has limited gyan at BL. 2. How do you justify that the state of liberated soul at BL with limited gyan is called salvation? 3. If it has limited gyan, then how do you explain it’s merging in nirgun Brahman at the time of pralaya?
   “Is it justified to call a student who has completed his last courses 

but not received his diploma a graduate?  From his perspective he is.  

There is nothing more to be done.  But an employer for instance, might want 

to wait until he actually sees the piece of paper before e.g. offering a 

job”

Badisa: This piece of paper makes a lot of difference in ordinary life as well as in spiritualism. The person who has this paper will get the job, but not the other person. For a minute, if we assume that getting job is the final result, then in that case, it is obvious that both these persons are not said to have the same final result. You are implying that both are same. But what I am saying is that they are not equal. Nevertheless, both have one thing common. That is completion of courses. I am calling it as realization. The person who has diploma in your example is like merging in nirgun Brahman at the time of death. This is the ultimate stage, and there is nothing beyond it, and it is the final result. This state is not equal to the other person’s. Since the final result should be the same for all, and since the person who hasn’t got the diploma in this example is different, he cannot be said to have the same final result as that of other person, at that point of time
 – before he got the diploma. However, after getting his diploma (death), the final result would be the same. In this state, there are NO two, only one exists.     
   “from the point of view of the kramamukta, he _is_ liberated.  Remember the brahmasutra says "There is no return"  The cycle of rebirth is over. 

There is no force that can bring him back to samsara” “Aside: it should also be apparent from this account that Brahmaloka is 

not the same as svarga (heaven) from which it is possible to fall” 

Badisa: Here, you are implying that attainment of BL will not bring the liberated soul to samsar. This is not correct. This sutra needs to be understood very carefully. “No return” does not imply on account of attainment of BL by the liberated soul. Why? Because, attainment of any loka up to BL is subject to return to the world, as per Gita 8/16. This sutra is addressed to the liberated soul at BL, and such souls, having experienced the self, will eventually merge in nirgun brahman at pralaya. That is the reason, this sutra says no more births for this soul. This sutra is not intended to convey the meaning that upon attainment of BL, the liberated soul will not come back to samsar. Self-experience is the key here, and on account of it, this soul will never return. Why? Because such souls will eventually merge in nirgun Brahman at pralaya, and that is the reason they won’t return to samsar. This is what this sutra implies. Not the way you are interpreting it. If mere
 attainment of BL will put a full stop to retun to samsar, then in that case, there is no requirement for self-experience at BL and there is no reason for it to merge in nirgun Brahman at the time of pralaya. For the sake of argument, let’s assume that the liberated soul at BL failed self-experience before pralaya. Now, Can you speculate what would be its fate when creation is done again next time? You are also saying that BL is not the same of svarga to return to samsar. This is also incorrect. The qualified soul after following devyan path will reach BL, where Lord Brahma asks some questions. Those who give the correct answers are allowed to stay there, while all other unqualified ones will stay temporarily there, enjoy and then return to the samsar. Lord Brahma gives the final liberation teaching to the qualified soul, which are now staying at BL. For more details, please check Kaoushitaki Brahmanoupanishad. The bottom line here is that even attainment of BL is subject
 to return to the samsar. Based on this, you check for yourself about the correct intention of the last sutra.

“Acheiving mukti cannot be the 
  qualification 
  for being able to create, because it is by definition the trancendence 
  of 
  concepts such as creation, destruction etc"

Badisa: Then in that case, there should not have a sutra to say that the liberated souls at BL have no powers of creation etc. Badrayan, being a liberated soul, should not have framed this sutra if mukti is transcendence of creation etc. But, the fact that he had framed this sutra in keeping in mind about the liberated souls at BL implies clearly, that the state of liberated souls at BL is not salvation.  

“Ishvara has the power to enter and leave samsara because he is the 
  producer of that system.  The jivas cannot because they are products of that system.
   
  Badisa: Since we are talking about liberated soul and the powers at BL, as per your above reply, it appears that even in the state of salvation (as per you and other’s perspective), the liberated souls at BL would remain the product of producer. Interesting! But, this is incorrect.   
   
   Namaste
  Badisa

 				
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