[Advaita-l] [POSSIBLE SPAM]: upAdAna kAraNam.h

[bhaskar.yr at in.abb.com]

praNAms Sri Karthik prabhuji
Hare Krishna

K prabhuji:

I'm having a bit of a problem with the "standard translation":

  upAdAna kAraNam.h = Material Cause

IMHO, a better translation would be:

  upAdAna kAraNam.h = Constituent Cause

bhaskar :

prabhuji as you know when you open any dictionary to look at the meaning of
any word, invariably you'll find multiple meanings for the same
word...problem is not the usage of words & its meanings here, problem lies
in contextual usage & its interpretations & implications...So, it hardly
matters even if you translate upAdAna kAraNa as constituent cause or
otherwise..

Karthik prabhuji:

Here is the reason why.

The term "Material Cause" is used in Western philosophy to denote the
"Material" composition of an entity, which is *usually* MATTER. In
the context of Indian philosophy, the common example given for
upAdAna kAraNam.h is that of clay being the "upAdAna kAraNam.h" of a
(clay) pot. So it *appears* that upAdAna kAraNam.h and "Material
Cause" must be identical.

bhaskar :

BTW, I am wondering why Sri Ananda Hudbli prabhuji has not replied to your
above mail sofar....you know something, while describing upAdAna kAraNatva
of adhyAsa, vivaraNakAra gives the same example of pot & clay!!! It further
confirms that avidyA according to them is something *solid* and it is not
anyway abhAva rUpa. And again, as you might have seen from Sri Anada Hudli
prabhuji's mail, in Atma chaitanya/brahman itself there exists an anAdi
anirvachanIya avidyA (prior to srushti as avidyA shakti)...if you go by pot
& clay example to draw the identity theory between adhyAsa & avidyA..you
should accept that mUlAvidyA is identical with brahman!!!

K prabhuji:

2. vAsanA is an aspect of avidyA.
The author of the pa~nchapAdikA says, "Ignorance can continue in the
form of an impression..." Evidently, vAsanAs are (at least) one aspect of
Ignorance.

3. vAsanAs are non-physical.
Ramana Maharshi gives a cogent argument for this -- if the vAsanAs
were physical, they should get destroyed when the physical body gets
destroyed. But that would mean that death of body = death of vAsanAs
= salvation, which is false. Therefore, vAsanAs continue beyond the
death of the physical body, and are therefore non-physical in nature.

>From statements 1, 2 and 3, we have:

  upAdAna kAraNam.h can denote non-physical entities like vAsanAs.

bhaskar :

It is clear that you are not familiar with vivaraNa school's interpretation
of avidyA and even I doubt that you read Sri Anand Hudli's series
completely in this list ....Here I humbly request Sri Ananda prabhuji to
break out his silence & come forward with explanation provided by vivaraNa
prasthAna with regard to saMskAra-s/vAsana-s...When it is said it is anAdi
& anirvachanIya existent entity alongwith brahman, where can you bring
vAsana-s to explain mUlAvidyA or upAdAna kAraNatva for adhyAsa??? I hope
you have read nAsadIya quote from Ananda Hudli & its interpretation.
Moreover, if you see vivaraNa prasthAna, they say avidyA does not mean an
abhAva (non-entity) of the nature of not knowing (agrahaNa) nor is it of
the nature of wrong knowledge (mithyAjnAna) nor is it its saMskAra/vAsanA-s
(latent impressions).  It is ajnAna (lack of knowledge) which is
jnAnavirOdhi and bhAvarUpa...And in suShupti this mUlAvidyA exists
associated with vikshEpa saMskAra (latent tendency gained through
projection/dispersal)covering up the self!!!

K prabhuji:

Therefore, I don't think that equating upAdAna kAraNam.h with
"Material Cause" is wholly justified. I believe that upAdAna
kAraNam.h can refer to any entity that is composed of other elemental
entities, or Constituents. Therefore, I feel that a better
translation would be:

  upAdAna kAraNam.h = Constituent Cause

We say that entity X has the upAdAna kAraNam.h of substances
{A,B,C...} if X is Constituted by the substances {A,B,C...}.
This would cover those cases even where the entity/substances are
non-physical.

Is the above acceptable?

bhaskar :

Considering the above explanations given by paNchapAdikA vivaraNa you
yourself decide whether your explanations fits into the bill of
vyAkhyAnakAra-s.  From where do you bring A,B,C substances in the X which
is anAdi, anirvachanIya entity associated with brahman itself & which has
the power of its own !!!???

Thanks,
Kartik

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
bhaskar