[Advaita-l] RE: Advaita vEdAnta - Unit (11)

[Krishnamurthy Ramakrishna]

PraNAms,
In response to Shri Manian, advaita means only ONE - there were no two any
time. 
Brahman and jIva are not two different entities. We have not covered
jIva yet; this could be the cause of confusion for some; We will see
this when we come to understand jIva.
Suppose for argument sake, there is a first creation, per Shri Manian's
logic.
What is the basis for the existence of jIvas? There is no past karma;
so every jIva created is a fully realized jIVa - a replica of Brahman?
A realized jIva has escaped the cycle of births and deaths. So what does
this birth of a realized jIva mean? If it is for dharma samsthApana
(establishment of dharma),every jIva is a realized soul; so where is the
need for establishment of dharma?
First creation thus violates the nitya - ever present characteristic of
Brahman.

Besides if there were no plants and animals, how is life possible?
"jIvO jIvasya jIvanam - life of one jIva is facilitated  by another jIva"
So how is life possible without food chain. So the first creation cannot
be explained. As much as anAdi- beginningless time is beyond our
comprehension, first creation is not explainable. All the three philosophies
- dvaita, vishiShTadvaita and advaita are on the same page on this.

Hari OM
K. Ramakrishna.

-----Original Message-----
From: Kris Manian [mailto:krismanian at gmail.com] 
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 3:37 PM
To: advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
Cc: Krishnamurthy Ramakrishna
Subject: Re: Advaita vEdAnta - Unit (11)

Thanks. But I have difficulty understand this, even an endless loop has
a beginning, right?
There must always be a first time for anything, no?
If we take your arguement then, looks like Jiva and brahman are two
separate entities and has been
in existance for ever and will continue that way for ever.

Pranam
Kris

Krishnamurthy Ramakrishna wrote:
> Kris Manian ji;
> namaste. 
> There is no first time jagat is created.
> The jagat has been in existence from anAdi - beginningless time.
> The current creation is to fulfill the karma of the previous creation;
> the previous creation to fulfill the karma of its previous creation
> and so on..... from beginningless time. If there was no karma of jIvas,
> at any time, why is there a need to create the jagat for no jIva has to
> experience the fruits of their karma. An analogy is - what is the
beginning
> point of a circle?
> Regards,
> K. Ramakrishna.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kris Manian [mailto:krismanian at gmail.com] 
> Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 1:46 PM
> To: advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
> Cc: puttakrishna at verizon.net
> Subject: RE: Advaita vEdAnta - Unit (11)
>
> Thanks Krishnamurthy ji. I have more questions.
>   
>>> Objection 6 - Brahman is Partial and Cruel
>>>       
>>   
>>     
>
>   
>>> There is wide range of differences in the creation of jagat. There are
>>>       
> some
>   
>>> who are very happy. Some of the animals undergo immense hardship and
>>> distress. Some others would have a mix of happiness and sorrow. So is
>>> Brahman partial? In addition, at the time of dissolution, all jIvas
>>> experience extreme distress. So is Brahman very cruel? If so, Brahman
>>>       
> cannot
>   
>>> be the kAraNa for jagat!
>>>       
>>   
>>     
>
>   
>>> vEdAntin: The jagat creation with differences in the happiness among
>>>       
> jIvas
>   
>>> is organized according to their karma. The variations, in the level of
>>> happiness among jIvas, is a result of their own making. Brahman is not
>>> responsible for this (In business life also, every one is rewarded
>>>       
> according
>   
>>> to their contributions!). The cause of dissolution is the aggregate
karma
>>>       
> of
>   
>>> jIvas. So this objection of Brahman's partiality or cruelty is not
>>>       
> accurate.
>   
>>   
>>     
>
>  Let us take the very first time the Jagat was created, when there was no
> karma
> at all for Jivas. At that time how many humans and creatures would have
been
> born?
> Probably one of whatever species Brhman wanted, right? (Most probably no
> animals, birds, insects etc as they are considered lower forms to human
and
> only are
> born due to human's bad karma) Because there was no cause for
> a vast number of species or vast number of humans as there was no karma to
> start with. 
> There would have been no sorrow, no pain and only all bliss, probably like
> the Garden of Eden? 
> So what do you think started off this chain of Karma and the world as we
see
> it now? 
>
> Pranam
> Kris
>
>
>
>
>