[Advaita-l] Brahman the oneness principle
Kalyan N
nkshemalatha at gmail.com
Sun Sep 23 15:58:24 CDT 2007
Dear Shri Shyam
Fantastic explanation on Jivatama paramatama [Ayikya] oneness by giving a
beautifful example oft quoted in the vedanta - water & the wave. Advaitam
well explained for our understanding.
My understanding of what you explained is as follows:
the worldly experiences we have are belonging to the Jivatman the limited
individual with I ness and my ness & the moment the Jivatman understands
that he is brahman then the limited feeling disappears & he looks in all the
jivatman the brahman like many waves are there but all the waves should have
the understanding that they belong to the water only & their existence
depend on the water only.
Hari Om
Kalyanasundaram
On 9/22/07, advaita-l-request at lists.advaita-vedanta.org <
advaita-l-request at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>
> Send Advaita-l mailing list submissions to
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/advaita-l
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> advaita-l-request at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> advaita-l-owner at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Advaita-l digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: The essence of advaita (prabha)
> 2. The essence of advaita (S.N. Sastri)
> 3. Re: The essence of advaita (Siva Senani Nori)
> 4. The Essence Of Advaita (sreenivasa murthy)
> 5. Re: The essence of advaita (Shyam)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 12:47:29 -0600
> From: prabha <prabhagc at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] The essence of advaita
> To: "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta"
> <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> Cc: advaitin at yahoogroups.com
> Message-ID:
> <519c3fa90709211147k6154a905y6e0241184aa1d75b at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252
>
> Pranams Sastriji and all others on this site,
>
> I am a relative novice and am having difficulty understanding much of
> this.
> I would greatly appreciate it if you or anyone else could answer these
> (elementary) questions. If these have been answered elsewhere, kindly
> point
> me there.
>
> These are basic tenets of Advaita:
>
>
> 1. There is only Brahman, nothing else.
> 2. The Universe is merely an illusion, it is superposed on Brahman ?
> it appears to be there, but is not.
>
> If the above is true, to whom does the illusion occur? I am not asking WHY
> there is the illusion or WHO is causing it ? I accept that it is due to
> Maya
> ? but to WHOM is the illusion happening?
>
>
>
> 1. Since we (Jivaatmas) are inside the Universe, we are part of the
> illusion, hence cannot be the observers as the illusion cannot observe
> itself. Is this statement incorrect?
> 2. Brahman cannot be the observer since the substratum cannot be the
> observer (just as the rope is not the observer - the human is). Is this
> correct?
> 3. If Jivaatma is the observer are we not saying that Jivatma is
> distinct and different from Paramaatma (the Brahman) which contradicts
> the
> first axiom that there is only Brahman, nothing else?
> 4. If we say that Jivatma is having this illusion and also accept the
> fact that Jivaatma and Paramaatma (Brahman) are one and the same, are we
> not
> saying that Paramaatma having the illusion, hence is not all knowing
> since
> illusion/ignorance cannot happen to the omniscient?
>
> Kindly forgive my ignorance. Any help would be appreciated. Thank you all.
>
> Prabha
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 10:39:02 +0530
> From: "S.N. Sastri" <sn.sastri at gmail.com>
> Subject: [Advaita-l] The essence of advaita
> To: advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
> Message-ID:
> <7b890d4a0709212209y57d186a6peff23fc396790a28 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Dear Shri Mahesh,
>
> We do not say that Brahman illuminates the mind. What we say is that the
> mind catches the reflection of consciousness and therefore appears to have
> consciouness of its own. The mind exists only in the vyavaharika plane and
> so this is also only in that plane. It is like the moon appearing to have
> brightness of its own while it is only reflecting the sun's light and the
> sun itself does not do anything to make the moon reflect its light.
> Similarly, if you hold a mirror in sunlight the reflection from the mirror
> can illumine a dark room. In this case also the sun does not do anything..
> So it is the mind that functions with the consciousness reflected in it
> and
> Brahman does not do anything.
>
> In the case of plants again, it is the plants that take the sun's energy
> and make chlorophyll, just as human beings use the sun's heat and light
> for
> various purposes without the sun itself doing anything.
>
> Even speaking of Brahman as a witness is only from the vyavaharika
> standpoint, since it can be a witness only when there is some thing to be
> witnessed. From the paramarthika standpoint there is nothing other than
> Brahman and so there is nothing to be witnessed. From the vyavaharika
> standpoint Brahman is a mere witness and all actions are performed by the
> body and mind with the consiousness reflected in the mind.
>
> S.N.Sastri
>
>
> As per your essence, the appearance of the world is an illusion - it
> appears
> real only when viewed from the vyvaharic satta and not paramarthic. I am
> unclear on one aspect of this idea. In Advaita, the mind (am using this
> term
> loosely to include buddhi, manas, etc) is said to function only becuase
> its
> sattvic content is reflected/illumined by the light of Brahman.
>
> The question I have is this: From which satta are we attributing this
> power
> of illumination to Brahman? It cannot be from the paramarthic satta since
> the universe does not exist in that realm. If it is from the vyavaharic
> one,
> then we are attributing an action (of illuming) to Brahman which goes
> against the idea that Brahman can be talked of only in the paramarthic
> satta.
>
> To further explain my point we can consider an oft used analogy. Brahman
> is
> like the sun and its mere presence makes nature act. It shines equally on
> all - plant, animal or humans. When we link it to my original question
> regarding the mind, in order to explain how nature functions, we are now
> forced to consider the energy emanating from the sun's rays and how, for
> example, it allows plants to make chlorphyll in order to grow . In other
> words, instead of taking Brahman/sun to be a mere witness, we seem to be
> conscious of its power working in the vyavaharic satta.
>
> I would be most grateful for an explanation especially if I have
> understood
> the concept wrongly.
>
> Thanks, Mahesh
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 00:42:41 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Siva Senani Nori <sivasenani at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] The essence of advaita
> To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta
> <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> Message-ID: <719973.70046.qm at web54204.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: prabha prabhagc at gmail.com
>
>
> If the above is true, to whom does the illusion occur? I am not asking WHY
> there is the illusion or WHO is causing it ? I accept that it is due to
> Maya
> ? but to WHOM is the illusion happening?
>
> 1. Since we (Jivaatmas) are inside the Universe, we are part of the
> illusion, hence cannot be the observers as the illusion cannot observe
> itself. Is this statement incorrect?
>
> Pranams Prabhaji
>
> Though this question is addressed to the learned scholar Br. Sri S. N.
> Sastry, I am making bold to share my understanding, in a spirit of testing
> my understanding.
>
> The illusion is to the Atman, which is the same as Brahman. The Atman
> forgets its permanent (true, sat, nitya) nature of Brahman and gets
> associated with the fleeting (untrue, asat, anitya) phenomenon that the
> world is, due to mAyA. The very statement that "we jivatmas are inside the
> universe" contains an assumption that the full extent of the Atman is only
> that which is inside, or more accurately seeming to be inside, the universe.
>
> It might be useful to take the example of a dream: if I dream about
> something involving me as well - I become a part of the illusion, but my
> dream-self is only a part of my full self. There is a sAkshi outside, the
> underlying turIya-avasthA which is the substratum of, and pervades, the
> waking, dreaming, and dreamless-sleep states. It is the same with the world:
> the self in the world is indeed an amSa - as perceived by the antahkaraNa
> that the mind is - of the complete Self, but the complete Self is always the
> subject, never the object, to the extent we permit the subject-object
> differentiation.
>
> Whenever we consider the tripuTi - the three components of subject -
> object - action or j~nAtri-j~neya-j~nAna, at some level it boils down to
> wondering at the inadequacy of language and the other tools of thought in
> expressing how these three resolve into the Sat, the Eternal. How true are
> the Sruti-vAkyas: yato vAco nivartante ... aprApya manasA saha...!
>
> Regards
> Senani
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
> Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search
> http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 13:44:46 +0100 (BST)
> From: sreenivasa murthy <narayana145 at yahoo.co.in>
> Subject: [Advaita-l] The Essence Of Advaita
> To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta
> <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> Message-ID: <370693.94813.qm at web8814.mail.in.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> From: H.N.Sreenivasa murthy
> Pranams to all.
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: prabha prabhagc at gmail.com
>
>
> If the above is true, to whom does the illusion occur? I am not asking
> WHY
> there is the illusion or WHO is causing it ? I accept that it is due to
> Maya
> ? but to WHOM is the illusion happening?
>
> 1. Since we (Jivaatmas) are inside the Universe, we are part of the
> illusion, hence cannot be the observers as the illusion cannot
> observe
> itself. Is this statement incorrect?
>
> Dear Prabhaji,
>
> Are YOU in the world
> OR
> The world is in YOU?
> The correct answer to this question will answer all your
> questions. You have to get the answer within yourself by
> yourself . To do this one has to learn the art and science
> of taking the correct standpoint viz. taking the standpoint of the
> of WITNESS, YOUR TRUE SWAROOPA.
>
> With respectful regards,
> Sreenivasa Murthy
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Now you can chat without downloading messenger. Click here to know how.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 06:47:00 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Shyam <shyam_md at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] The essence of advaita
> To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta
> <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> Message-ID: <850136.43758.qm at web53410.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> Pranams Prabha-ji,
> There are many places in the archives of this list (Shri Ramesh
> Krishnamurthy's wonderful thesis on "introduction to vedanta" in this very
> list comes to mind), and Shri Shastri-ji's website itself, (to whom who you
> had posed the question) is a veritable "goldmine" of information in which
> many questions such as this can find ready answers.
> I can share with you my understanding, with the help of a "stock example"
> - the wave and the ocean.
>
>
> 1. There is only Brahman, nothing else.
> There is only water, nothing else.
>
> 2. The Universe is merely an illusion, it is superposed on Brahman ?
> it appears to be there, but is not.
> Here the word illusion is misleading. The ocean with millions of waves is
> not really an illusion "superimposed" on the water. That there is an ocean,
> that there are waves, is mithya because in essence there is only water.
> there is no wave minus the water. the wave is only a notion. Similarly, the
> Universe of duality, of time and space, is mithya - it is in essence the
> vastu - Brahman - it is nonseparate from the Whole.
>
> If the above is true, to whom does the illusion occur?
> The illusion or duality occurs to the ahankara or i-notion of the jiva.
> In our example, if we consider one wave in the ocean as having a notion of
> spearateness - i was born 10days ago, i am blue in color, my name is
> Devadutta, 4 days ago i married to this wave next to me called XYZ, we now
> have these 3 little waves that are next to us called A,B and C, i know at
> some point i am going to die - this "i-notion" - that i am this "discrete
> and distinct" entity - is who the illusion occurs to. The reason for this
> notion is ignorance or avidya - about his true nature, which is beginigless.
>
> 1. Since we (Jivaatmas) are inside the Universe, we are part of the
> illusion, hence cannot be the observers as the illusion cannot observe
> itself. Is this statement incorrect?
>
> This i-sense being only a mistaken,mis"placed" notion, can neither be said
> to be inside the ocean nor outside the notion, it can neither be said to be
> real, nor even unreal, as long as the particular wave Devadutta holds onto
> that notion.
>
> 2. Brahman cannot be the observer since the substratum cannot be the
> observer (just as the rope is not the observer - the human is). Is this
> correct?
>
> As far as water is concerned, there is neither ocean, nor waves, no
> illusion, nothing to observe, nothing but Itself, One, without a Second. The
> water is merely a unattached substratum in which is this whole play of
> waves, wave droplets, etc are born again and again and die.
>
> 3. If Jivaatma is the observer are we not saying that Jivatma is
> distinct and different from Paramaatma (the Brahman) which contradicts
> the
> first axiom that there is only Brahman, nothing else?
>
> The wave as Devadutta considers himself separate from the ocean. Until he
> realizes otherwise, Mr.Devadutta the wave is very much a small wave and
> the Ocean is very much infinitely large and powerful.
> Once he understands with the help of Shruti as well as a competent Guru,
> his true identity is only water, then all distinctions come to an end. He as
> a wave may still be "10days old", his physical location in the ocean need
> not change, (in the sense that he does not have to travel to a separate
> location in the ocean called Vaikuntha or Brahmaloka), but he is no longer
> deluded, his "identity-crisis" is over.
> So yes, there is water and noting else, but only when this is dis-covered
> to be a fact by the i-sense of the wave - for itself. as would be obvious
> this realization will result in an annihilation of the i-sense itself.
>
> 4. If we say that Jivatma is having this illusion and also accept the
> fact that Jivaatma and Paramaatma (Brahman) are one and the same, are we
> not
> saying that Paramaatma having the illusion, hence is not all knowing
> since
> illusion/ignorance cannot happen to the omniscient?
>
> Once again, from the water's (paramatma) standpoint, there is no
> distinction, no illusion. The wave is just a namaroopa - a form and a name -
> and its perspective is purely vyavahara - the wave only has transactional
> "reality".
> The water Alone is.
>
> Hope this has clarified more and confused less.
> Hari OM
> Shri Gurubhyo namah
> Shyam
>
>
>
> prabha <prabhagc at gmail.com> wrote: Pranams Sastriji and all others on this
> site,
>
> I am a relative novice and am having difficulty understanding much of
> this.
> I would greatly appreciate it if you or anyone else could answer these
> (elementary) questions. If these have been answered elsewhere, kindly
> point
> me there.
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail,
> news, photos & more.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Archives: http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/
>
> To unsubscribe or change your options:
> http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/advaita-l
>
> For assistance, contact:
> listmaster at advaita-vedanta.org
>
>
> End of Advaita-l Digest, Vol 53, Issue 19
> *****************************************
>
More information about the Advaita-l mailing list