[Advaita-l] shudra

[Michael Shepherd]

Dear Krishnamoorthy,

The Sanskrit reads aatmakam. If it's read as 'the nature of', what does that
really mean, or is the aatma dhatu to be lightly taken as a mere figure of
speech  ? Why not just 'paricharya' ? 'The nature of' shudra is mentioned
later in the verse.

Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: advaita-l-bounces at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
[mailto:advaita-l-bounces at lists.advaita-vedanta.org]On Behalf Of sriram
Sent: 20 August 2009 01:48
To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] shudra



Dear members
According to my copy the stanza 18-44-in A.C.Bakthivedantha Prabhupatha`s
speaks of paricharya athmakam meaning consisting of service is the nature of
so and so etc.This has nothing to do with athman is my
reading.R.Krishnamoorthy.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Shepherd" <michael at shepherd87.fsnet.co.uk>
To: "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta"
<advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 3:44 AM
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] shudra


Dear Sunilji,

OK -- suppose the shudra's service is indeed pari-uthana-atmakam : serving
the original atman as it arises... sounds good to me ! And even if were
uttama or uttara, it would be the highest atman as it develops outward !

And I remember that verse from the RgVeda where three members of a family
are said to belong to three varna -- a nice reproof there !
And I can appreciate that in a settled society, there is huge advantage for
the children, absorbing just by watching, the skills of their parents. And
the 'tool ceremony' -- is it still carried out ? at 1 year is it, when the
tools of different trades are spread out and the child is watched to see
which it goes for ?

Karma is such a subtle agent, that mankind can only observe it closely, and
marvel ?

If you'll excuse a personal reminiscence : I was born of a very poor family
on both sides, the equivalent of shudra, who like so many in so many
countries of the world, had been contented vaisya-shudra working the land
and selling their produce in the market; but then were starved off the land
and drawn to the lowest shudra work in the new factories in the 'industrial
revolution'...but such was the communal pride, that neighbourhoods set up
every possible religious, moral and educational organisation of 'good works
by the poor for the poor' -- including 'barefoot, and ragged schools' --
whereby the shudra could 'better themselves' by aspiring to the highest
values of brahmana, kshatriya and vaisya.. So that for instance, one of my
mother's schoolmates became a famous  professor of language in America,
etc...and I was fortunate in attennding a school where 'a life of service to
all' was gently inculcated as the highest ideal.. So I'm naturally curious
about Hindu views on this matter from its teachings.

Regards,
Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: advaita-l-bounces at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
[mailto:advaita-l-bounces at lists.advaita-vedanta.org]On Behalf Of Sunil
Bhattacharjya
Sent: 19 August 2009 01:04
To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] shudra



Dear Michaelji,

That everybody is born Shudra is told by Atri. Lord Krishna said what is
there in the book you have. The verse containing "paryuthaanaatmakam karma"
is from that version of Bhagavad Gita which contains 745 Verses. According
to the Mahabharata the original Bhagavad Gita had 745 verses and out of that
Lord Krishna spoke 620 verses. In the commonly available version of the
Bhagavad Gita Lord Krishna has 574 verses and 46 (620 - 574 = 46) verses are
missing. Adi Sankaracharya reportedly wrote Bhashya on the version of
Bhagavad Gita with 700 verses as that was only brought to him when he asked
someone to fetch the book "Lalita Trishati" for writing a bhashya on
that. He accepted that as the wish of the Lord and proceeded to write
bhashya on the Bhagavad Gita, which he got. All the scholars may not agree
on that.

There was a time in the ancient past when the same family had all the Varnas
and there was dignity of each Varna. Rig Veda has a verse where it shows the
different members of the family with different professions. However the food
habits (or rather the food requirements for) people of different professions
were different. The brahmins had austere food-habits and austere life-style
and thus the profession-wise distances grew up in the course of time.

Regards,

Sunil K. Bhattacharjya




--- On Tue, 8/18/09, Michael Shepherd <michael at shepherd87.fsnet.co.uk>
wrote:


From: Michael Shepherd <michael at shepherd87.fsnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] shudra
To: "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta"
<advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
Date: Tuesday, August 18, 2009, 12:41 PM


Dear Sunilji

Who am I to cavil with you ?... But my copy of BG 18.41 says nothing of
initiation or second birth or specialised training. Rather, it speaks in
18.42-3 of the personal and moral qualities expected of the Brahmana and
kshatriya.
All that 18.44 offers is a 'job description' for vaishyas and shudras -- as
if no personal qualities are required for these 'jobs'.. not quite a
balanced statement : who would not want a servant who does not possess
something of all those qualities enumerated of brahmana and kshatriya when
the need arises ?
However, of the shudra, the requirement is 'paricharyatman'... now whose
atman does that refer to ? 'Serving the atman' gives a different flavour to
real service.. certainly more than 'shifting goods' with a fork-lift truck !

I mention this only in view of what I read in some places as if shudra were
merely a labourer in the 'service industries' without imagination.. and I
still ask where and when the 'second birth' dvija came into Hinduism -- and
what it implies ? Krishna goes on to say that that all that play these roles
may achieve perfection.

What I do find interesting is the karmic aspect. As we know, noble birth is
not always lived up to; and humble birth can be a great stimulus to
achieving greatness..

Michael






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