[Advaita-l] shudra

[Anbu sivam2]

Who other kings do you know among the Buddhists?

On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 5:19 AM, Sunil Bhattacharjya <
sunil_bhattacharjya at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Shri Anbu Sivanji,
>
> You said
>
> Quote
>
> It is a historical fact that Brahmins in thousands were slaughtered by
> Buddhist kings.
>
> Unquote
>
> It would be good if you please give some details on it. As regards king
> Ashoka's murderous expedition to Kalinga that took place when Ashoka was not
> a Buddhist. Only after the Kalinga war that he accepted Buddhism.
>
>
> --- On Fri, 8/21/09, Anbu sivam2 <anbesivam2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> From: Anbu sivam2 <anbesivam2 at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] shudra
> To: "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta" <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> Date: Friday, August 21, 2009, 11:00 PM
>
>
> Dear Sunilji,
> I am talking about Buddhism as a religion in relation to Hinduism as a
> religion and the social impact of Buddhism.  The necessity of the four
> varnas in Hinduism and the consequent balance between them that was held by
> the Dharma which together is called Varnasrama Dharma was explained in the
> Musings that I posted earlier.  This balance was disturbed by the Buddhist
> religion that held sway for a while in ancient India.  Varnasrama Dharma is
> part of the vedic religion that preached the concept of the immanence and
> transcendence of God .  Buddhism on the other hand is avaidhic and preached
> nireeswara vaadham.  Buddhism was therefore opposed by the Brahmins and the
> kshathriyas guided by them.  It is a historical fact that Brahmins in
> thousands were slaughtered by Buddhist kings.
>
> On Thu, Aug 20, 2009 at 5:58 PM, Sunil Bhattacharjya <
> sunil_bhattacharjya at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Shri Anbu Sivamji,
> >
> > I am shocked that you do not know about Buddhism yet you are talking
> about
> > that. Had you read the chapter on "Brahman" in the "Dhammapada" you would
> > have known that the Brahmins are a respected lot in Buddhism and Lord
> Buddha
> > said what a true brahmin should be like. Exclusivity is there in Buddhism
> > also. In Buddhism, as practised, everybody cannot become an ascetic or
> monk.
> > For example, a physically disable person is not allowed to be a monk,
> > whereas in Hinduism the physical disability does not come in the way of
> > becoming an ascetic and acquiring knowledge at all and Astavakra is a
> > burning example of that. Further for you information Lord Buddha was a
> born
> > Hindu and he died a Hindu. He never said that he was establishing a new
> > dharma. He said that he was only restating what had been told by the
> earlier
> > seers. Even Dr. Ambedkar, who loved the ideals of Lord Buddha, remained a
> > Hindu till his last year in life and his wife was a brahmin lady. In case
> >  you have any doubt I am also a lover of Lord Buddha and of Buddhism
> while
> > remaining myself a Hindu.
> >
> > Intellectuals always had some privilege like even the toda'ys brahmins
> ie.
> > the professors, teachers and the research scholars devote full-time to
> jnana
> > and they need not resort to another means of livelihood as long as they
> are
> > devoted to that profession.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- On Thu, 8/20/09, Anbu sivam2 <anbesivam2 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: Anbu sivam2 <anbesivam2 at gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] shudra
> > To: "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta" <
> > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> > Date: Thursday, August 20, 2009, 7:04 AM
> >
> >
> > As you know when the Hindu kings of yore faught against each other it
> made
> > no impact on the varna system.  It was only at the advent of Buddhist and
> > Jain religions that the system got affected.  These religions opened up
> the
> > gnana maarga that reqired the abandonment of karma to all and sundry
> > whereas
> > Sanathana Dharma had reserved it for the Brahmins only, the reason being
> > that the society can ill-afford the non-Brahmins varnas to abandon their
> > karma and dharma..  Buddhism and Jainism are avaidhic religions and so
> the
> > varnasrama dharma were not theirs to follow.  Particularly under Buddhism
> > the need for Brahmins as a community was not required and this alone
> caused
> > the clash between the Brahmins and the Buddhists.  When the kings
> switched
> > over to Buddhism they could not depend on the ancient dhaarmic
> > self-restraints on the part of different communities as the kshathriyas
> got
> > weaker and varna mingling was unavoidable.  Actually there was near chaos
> > in
> > the law and order situation and for the first time the kings (not rishis)
> > were called to enact laws of restrictions on the communities.  The first
> > and
> > foremost was the forbiddance of intermingling (untouchability) was
> > introduced.  This is how secular law started!  However many kings started
> > to
> > revert back to Hinduism as it was more easier to rule under the dhaarmic
> > system.  There were also wars among the Hindu and Buddhist kings.  The
> ones
> > who constituted the kshathriyas under the Buddhist were never absorbed
> back
> > into the Hindu kshathriya community and they were enslaved and formed the
> > fifth varna of outcasts.  In modern days the occupations held by the
> > sudhras
> > have also vanished mostly to mechanization and they are also joing this
> > fifth varna who are now probably called the dalits.  This constitute a
> > great
> > reservoir of inertia and the modern politicians who are mostly the
> vaisyas
> > use them to wreak havoc on the already strained varna system by
> targetting
> > the weak Brahmins.
> >
> > On Wed, Aug 19, 2009 at 11:54 PM, Jaldhar H. Vyas <
> jaldhar at braincells.com
> > >wrote:
> >
> > > On Mon, 17 Aug 2009, Michael Shepherd wrote:
> > >
> > >  I would be happy to clear up this matter of 'shudra' with the help of
> > >> members here : it is clearly an aspect of advaita, yet there seems to
> be
> > a
> > >> confusion about the real meaning of the term -- and thus, whether it
> has
> > >> any
> > >> relevance in today's society..
> > >>
> > >> The confusions seem to be two in particular : first, that varna and
> jati
> > >> and
> > >> 'caste' are randomly used in relation to shudra; and second, that by
> > >> translating it as 'labourer' rather than 'servant' there is a sense of
> > >> inferiority implied.
> > >>
> > >>
> > > A big problem is the varna system as depicted in books bears little
> > > relation to the system that actually exists in Indian society.  The
> > Shudra
> > > varna as a sociological category is meaningless.  Shudra castes include
> > > economically dominant landholders, professionals and artisans as well
> as
> > the
> > > oppressed and downtrodden.  And this is not new, in fact it has been
> the
> > > state of affairs for all of Indias recorded history.  Even in the
> > shastras
> > > it is not cut and dry.  For instance of the two examples Shankaracharya
> > > gives of Shudras who were jnanis, one Dharmavyadha was a hunter and
> > butcher
> > > of meat but the other Vidura was the minister of the Kurus, hardly a
> > servile
> > > position.
> > >
> > >  Yet if the definition of 'servant' and 'service' is applied, it is
> > >> immediately obvious that one can serve kings, ministers, brahmins,
> > >> kshatriyas, and anyone else -- paid or unpaid -- with the highest
> > >> faithfulness, skills, devotion, and knowledge.
> > >>
> > >> How then can any spiritual gifts be denied to shudras ? How can shudra
> > be
> > >> seen as
> > >> next to dalit in some map of society ?
> > >>
> > >>
> > > If Shudra means anything at all it is they are not dvija or twice-born.
> > > That means they are not entitled to initiation into the study of the
> > Vedas.
> > >  The problem is that the Upanishads are the basis of Vedanta and being
> > part
> > > of the Vedas, it would prima facie seem to mean that Shudras (and
> women,
> > and
> > > foreigners etc.) are not eligible to study Vedanta and achieve moksha.
> > This
> > > view was indeed held by some thinkers and even in the Smarta tradition,
> > > there are some orders that do not accept non-dvija or non-Brahmanas.
> > >
> > > But this is not the majority view and Shankaracharya explains why.  The
> > > function of the karmakanda of the Vedas is to produce the desired goal
> > > (icchita phala) by means of accumulating merit and avoiding sin.  This
> > goal
> > > once acquired is enjoyed until it becomes exhausted whereupon the cycle
> > has
> > > to begin again.  Adhikara or eligibility for karma legitimately depends
> > on
> > > external factors (along with caste they could include, gender, age,
> > wealth,
> > > region, level of education, etc.) because the body itself is the
> product
> > of
> > > this process of karma. However jnana is different.  Brahman is not a
> > thing
> > > to be acquired neither can it be lost as it is the indwelling essence
> of
> > all
> > > that is.  One who posesses qualities such as chetana (awareness),
> viveka
> > > (the ability to discriminate between real and non-real,) vairagya
> > > (renunciation of material things) etc. has the adhikara to know
> Brahman.
> > >  And as it is plainly evident that the non-dvija are capable of
> posessing
> > > such qualities.
> > >
> > > So much for theory but the practical problem still remains.  Without
> > access
> > > to the Vedas _how_ will non-dvija get the knowledge that leads to
> > > liberation?  Bhagavan Krishna Dvaipayana who is called Vedavyasa
> because
> > of
> > > organizing the Vedas into four, also took the essence of the Vedas and
> > > composed the Mahabharata (which contains the Bhagavadgita,
> > Sanatasujatiyam
> > > etc.) and the 18 puranas culminating in the Bhagavata.  By studying
> these
> > > (which are therefore collectively known as the fifth veda,) the
> non-dvija
> > > can also receive the same spiritual gifts available to the Brahmanas,
> > > Kshatriyas, and Vaishyas.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at braincells.com>
> > >
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