[Advaita-l] Conference on that Date of Adi Sankaracharya inOctober, 2002
Michael Shepherd
michael at shepherd87.fsnet.co.uk
Mon Dec 14 13:33:37 CST 2009
Dear Sunil,
I didn't know about the Chinese translation of the Karika -- often noted to
have Buddhist terms and Buddhist sympathies, as if there was to Gaudapada's
mind not so much to make issue about, between Hinduism and Buddhism at the
time he wrote..
which reminds me of an 'unscholarly' but interesting question : when might
there have been a 'divine necessity' for Adi Shankara's birth ? Some
scholars say that he was writing at just the 'right' time to bring order to
spiritual confusion and laxity in India.. and 'date' him by that. But since
other scholars say that the Advaita schools had been in steady existence
from centuries before Adi Shankara, was he so much the pioneer of Advaita,
as the spokesman for a well-established school of great antiquity ?
Interesting questions -- if ultimately, mere shadows of maya...
Michael
-----Original Message-----
From: advaita-l-bounces at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
[mailto:advaita-l-bounces at lists.advaita-vedanta.org]On Behalf Of Sunil
Bhattacharjya
Sent: 14 December 2009 17:40
To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Conference on that Date of Adi Sankaracharya
inOctober, 2002
Dear Michael,
Yes there was a chinese translation of Gauapada karika several centuries
before 788 CE. As Gauapada was hardly a century or two before Adi
Sankaracharya one paper seem to suggest that the date of 8th century CE for
Adi Sankaracharya may not be reasonable.
Regards,
Sunil
--- On Mon, 12/14/09, Michael Shepherd <michael at shepherd87.fsnet.co.uk>
wrote:
From: Michael Shepherd <michael at shepherd87.fsnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Conference on that Date of Adi Sankaracharya in
October, 2002
To: "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta"
<advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
Date: Monday, December 14, 2009, 5:02 AM
Dear Sunil,
Thank you for that summary. It seems more of a discussion than a conclusion
!
As I understand it, there is an interdependent question of dating, involving
Adi Shankara's indication of Gaudapada of the Karika as his'grand-guru' and
teacher of his teacher Govinda. There is some belief that Gaudapada could be
dated by his references to Buddhist teachings. And does 'grand-guru' mean
three succeeding generations, or a 'gurudom' across a longer period than a
lifetime ? Some read Adi Shankara as having met Gaudapada in person.
I believe Swami Dayananda may have clearer views on this, judging from his
disciple Michael Comans' well-argued book on 'The Method of Early Advaita
Vedanta'. And no doubt Professor Sharma of Delhi University has come to his
own conclusions ?
Michael
-----Original Message-----
From: advaita-l-bounces at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
[mailto:advaita-l-bounces at lists.advaita-vedanta.org]On Behalf Of Sunil
Bhattacharjya
Sent: 14 December 2009 12:32
To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta
Subject: [Advaita-l] Conference on that Date of Adi Sankaracharya in
October,2002
Dear Michael,
With the help of a friend I could read the papers presented in the above
Conference. The gist is as follows.
Western scholars suggested the year 788 CE. Max Muller did that from his AIT
Chronology. Dr. Fergusson supported that in his book "History Ofg India".
Prof. Webb suggested tyhe 8th century CR in his "History of Indian
Literature" C.P.Tiele in "Outlibes of History of religions" and Barth in
"Indian Antiquary (Vol. XIII) referred to an inscription from Cambodia to
suggest the same based on guesswork. Some Indian scholars supported the 788
CE date thinking that Dignaga and Dharmakirti were living in the 6th and the
7th century CE and they saw that there are slokas in the Sutrabhashya which
are the same as given in the works of Dignaga and Dharmakirti. . The
scholars were wrong in their dates of Dignaga and Dharmakirti.
There citations of many proofs such as the Tamrasasana of Sudhanva to
arrive at the date of 509 BCE.
It is interesting to note that the Dwaraka peeth said that their first
pontiff was Brahmaswarupacharya and that the first Pontiff at sringeri was
Hastamalaka. Incidentally Hastamalaka hailed from Gokarna which is not very
far from Sringeri. So it appears that Sureshwaracharya was kept free for the
Kanchi Kamakoti peeth.
I wish the Sringeri peeth should come out with a scholarly paper in support
of their date of Adi Sankaracharya. Alberuni's mention of the works of
Bhaskaracharyta seems to suggest the exoistencve of one earlier Saka kala.
Regards,
Sunil
--- On Thu, 12/10/09, Michael Shepherd <michael at shepherd87.fsnet.co.uk>
wrote:
From: Michael Shepherd <michael at shepherd87.fsnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Aham Brahmaasmi
To: sivasenani at yahoo.com, "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta"
<advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
Date: Thursday, December 10, 2009, 6:18 AM
Dear Sri Senani
Let me say at once : Sanskrit and Vedic grammar before it are the oldest,
most subtle, and most universal grammar in the world; and thus, Sanskrit
explanations of Sanskrit grammar will be far more advanced than anything
that English-speaking grammarians have inherited from earlier
simplifications by earlier generations, fossilized in book form ! And
grammar itself is transcendental, so beyond any human interpretation, living
purely in its causes and effects ! So take everything I say with a large
pinch of organic sea-salt...
However, John Grimes, of the 'Concise Dictionary of Indian Philosophy', is
an acknowledge scholar, studying, teaching and moving between the US and
India now for many years; so I tend to favour his 'thumbnail' definitions as
a broad consensus.
'Atman-' like swa, is normally given as another form of reflexive along
with -asmi.
So I bow to the pundits in all this-- if they agree among themselves :)
Michael
-----Original Message-----
From: advaita-l-bounces at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
[mailto:advaita-l-bounces at lists.advaita-vedanta.org]On Behalf Of
sivasenani at yahoo.com
Sent: 10 December 2009 13:03
To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Aham Brahmaasmi
Dear Sri Michael and Sri Jaladhar
I meant to look up a few references after reading your statement that asmi
is a pronominal suffix but could not.
I know it is too basic for either of you but would it be possible to supply
an authority to back up this view? My own understanding is that 'aham
brahma' is exactly the same as 'aham brahmaasmi' or 'brahmaasmi'.
The way I remember to have learnt, forms of 'as' and 'bhu' have to be often
supplied by the reader. They are 'adhyaahritas'. For instance in 'prajnaanam
brahma' or 'ayam aatmaa brahma' an 'asti' is implicit (or in satyam jnaanam
anantam brahma); or to take a counter example, the 'asi' in tattvamasi does
not reflect back on the subject nor does it intensify. If one were to take
examples involving the uttama purusha only, dhanyo'ham is exactly the same
as dhanyo'smi. If emphasis is required 'vai' (in the older language) and
'eva' in the more recent period) do the job ('ahameva maam juhomi svaahaa' a
mantra taught in Sri Vidya is an example). Sometimes aatma is repeated as in
the Gita teaching about the Self itself uplifting the Self.
In the example given by Sri Michael, the being in third person (prathama
purusha) asmi has no place either as a verb or a pronominal suffix. If we
were to make the King to convey that sense, he would in most places in
Sanskrit literature use 'aatmaanam'
Best regards
Senani
Sent from BlackBerry® on Airtel
-----Original Message-----
From: "Michael Shepherd" <michael at shepherd87.fsnet.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 12:37:30
To: A discussion group for Advaita
Vedanta<advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Aham Brahmaasmi
Anant
Since you ask :) Aham brahmasmi means literally (in that unsatisfactory
'Sanglish' or 'Engskrit' language of translation !) 'I-awareness('am-ness')
am Brahman myself'. Aham is a pronoun and verb joined as 'I am'. The
'pronominal suffix 'asmi' can carry either of two meanings : ' as in 'The
king cut himself while shaving'; or in 'The king himself joined the battle'.
The first meaning is 'reflexive' -- an action done to oneself; the second,
also labelled 'reflexive' (and less discussed in Vedic and Sanskrit grammar)
is used more as an 'intensive' like 'Indeed true'.
Why, you reasonably ask, add the 'asmi' ? Perhaps 'Aham Brahman' might be
taken out of context to suggest that Brahman is asserting His existence ! So
this is a reminder that I myself, you yourself, he himself, she herself, is
indeed that Brahman -- not two other guys *!* (It's extended in the vakya
'ayam atmaBrahma, sarva nu bhu')
The four 'mahavakya' are indeed four aspects, four views from different
positions, of the essential concept of Advaita Vedanta. The fact that they
are displayed on the four compass sides of the inner courtyard of a math
indicates that they are considered worthy to be contemplated individually
and together !
You could say that of the four mahavakya, one is addressed to the first
person; another to the second person; another is 'impersonal'; and the
fourth doesn't address the person at all, but is simply a statement about
consciousness itself being universal as Brahman..
Michael
-----Original Message-----
From: advaita-l-bounces at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
[mailto:advaita-l-bounces at lists.advaita-vedanta.org]On Behalf Of
Somayaji, Ananth
Sent: 10 December 2009 11:19
To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Aham Brahmaasmi
I see another issue with this : Assuming that aham is an adjective
qualification to Brahman, it brings about the existence of another Brahman
albeit Ham-Brahman. It would bring about duality inside Mahavakya. Thoughts
? The other things to consider is that in none of the other Mahavakyas we
have any adjective to the Brahman : Tatvamasi, Pragyanam Brahma etc. Can
some one correct me if I am wrong ?
-Ananth
-----Original Message-----
From: advaita-l-bounces at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
[mailto:advaita-l-bounces at lists.advaita-vedanta.org] On Behalf Of Raghav
Kumar
Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2009 02:42 PM
To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Aham Brahmaasmi
well sir,
first take the sentence
brahma asmi
that is a mahavakya complete and accurate in itself. the verb 'asmi'
implies the first person singular anyway even without 'aham'
now therefore aham can be taken as an adjective qualifying brahma since both
the words aham and brahma are neuter singular nouns.
therefore it aham-brahma asmi isgrammaticaly ok. athough the interpretation
itself is something novel. i have never come across it.
On 12/10/09, sthanunathan Ramakrishnan <r_sthanu at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Dear Shakthi,
>
> I have one problem with your interpretation. I do not know if
> "ham" means rejectable. But assuming it is, the statement should be
> "Aham Brahma Asthi" (to get the meaning you intend, that is the "Non
> Rejectable is the greatest") and not "Aham Brahma Asmi", because "Asmi" is
> in the first person and "Asthi" would be in the third person.
>
> Folks, Please correct me if Iam wrong. Iam just taking my baby steps in
> learning sanskrit.
>
> regards
> Sthanu
>
> > But I have also heard an interpretation like this:
> >
> > "Aham Brahmasmi"
> > ham - means reject-able ? ? ? ? ?? [in Sanskrit.]
> > Aham - means Non-reject-able?? [in Sanskrit.]
> > Brahma - Greatest??????????????????? [in Sanskrit.]
> >
> > So, it comes to a conclusion that,
> > The one which is Non-reject-able? is the Greatest.
>
>
>
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 10:34:04 +0530 (IST)
> > From: Shakthi Prashanth <shakthi.prashanth at ymail.com>
> > Subject: [Advaita-l] Fw: RE: Query [continued]
> > To: advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
> > Message-ID: <843026.39194.qm at web95104.mail.in2.yahoo.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> >
> > Hi All,
> >
> > Thank you so much for such a great response from all of
> > you.
> >
> > But I have also heard an interpretation like this:
> >
> > "Aham Brahmasmi"
> > ham - means reject-able ? ? ? ? ?? [in Sanskrit.]
> > Aham - means Non-reject-able?? [in Sanskrit.]
> > Brahma - Greatest??????????????????? [in Sanskrit.]
> >
> > So, it comes to a conclusion that,
> > The one which is Non-reject-able? is the Greatest.
> >
>
>
>
>
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