[Advaita-l] A Perspective - 4

[Anbu sivam2]

Siva and Krishna are mere names.  I am not attached to names.  Neither would
I venture to counterpose them.  Yet I do talk of Siva and Krishna and I am
sure you know why.

Please ponder: *Nothing moves without Him who moves without Himself moving!*
அவனன்றி ஓரணுவும் அசையாதே!  (I am sure you know that Krishna said that to
Arjuna).  All kaamya and nishkaama karmas are to be understood from this
statement.





On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 5:03 PM, Sunil Bhattacharjya <
sunil_bhattacharjya at yahoo.com> wrote:

>
> Dear Anbuji,
>
> You
> seem to be widening the topic under discussion. We were talking about
> Nashkaama karma and you brought in the terms, "Pashu" and "Pashupati".
> I would not call it irrelevant though.
>
> "Paashabaddha it Pashu".
> Kamyakarma creates the pashas, the fetters. When one stops doing
> kamyakarma completely and all the karmas are Niskaama karma then only
> one can become free form the paashas and be one with the pashupati.
> Doing both the Kaamyakarma and Nishlkaama karma together is like
> visha-mishrit amrita, ie.  the nectar mixed with poison and we are not
> discussing about that now. That type of mixed work does not qualify to
> be called Niskaama karma any more.
>
> Nishkaama
> karmi is the real Sannyashi and a Yogi and not the one who became
> Sannyashi by initiation into Sannyasha. You seem to have forgotten what
> Lord Krishna says : "Sri Bhagavaan uvaaca - Anaashritah karma-phalam karyam
> karma karoti yah sa sannyaasi cha yogee cha na niragnir na chaakriyah".
> I consider Lord Krishna as the Supreme authority, the guru of the
> gurus. Now do not tell me you consider Lord Shiva as the supreme
> authority or someone else. I have nothing more to say after this
> pronouncement by Lord Krishna. To me there is no difference between
> Lord Krishna and Lord Shiva. I do not discount the authority of
> Sadanadaji, whom you quoted but I am sure he too must be accepting the
> authority of Lord Krishna.
>
>
> --- On Tue, 11/10/09, Tapas <tapasbox at gmail.com>
>  wrote:
>
> From: Tapas <tapasbox at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] A Perspective - 4
> To: "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta" <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> Date: Tuesday, November 10, 2009, 4:28 AM
>
> The analysis was excellent
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anbu sivam2" <anbesivam2 at gmail.com>
> To: "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta" <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 4:08 AM
> Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] A Perspective - 4
>
>
> > Dear Sunilji,
> >
> > When I said "Karma is maaya.  Gnaanis are beyond it." I
>  was stating a
> > profound truth of advaitha.
> >
> > In dwaitha prapancham we have pasu and pathi and they have work to do.
> >
> > Pasu does both Kamya and Nishkaamya karma.  As Sadanandaji put it
> "Niskaama
> > only means no self-centered desire". I am sure you will have no
> difficulty
> > in accepting this fact.
> >
> > Talking of dwaitha prapancham there are two views.  One sees that I am
> real,
> > you are real and He is real.  In other words each one is a separate
> entity.
> > In this scheme of things God is powerful and all submit to his authority.
> > The relationship is like the one between Raja and praja.  In this scheme
> of
> > things a jeeva performs karma as destined by his varna and aasrama.  No
> > violation is tolerated.
> >
> > The other view is - I am real, all others are God in different forms.  In
> > this view the identity of you apart
>  and different from all others is an
> > alienation that has to be overcome.  A person who thinks he is alien does
> > kaamya karma and the one who has overcome the alienation does nishkaama
> > karma. Kaamya karma brings its rewards that is enjoyed in newer janmas.
> You
> > can feel alinated and that is your option that has pitfalls.  But if you
> try
> > to alienate another from God then you are attacking God, an act
> considered
> > asuric and will be liable for severe punishment.
> >
> > When pathi does the work such as parithraaNaaya sadhunaam, vinaasaaya cha
> > dhushkrithaam etc. as in the case of Krishna we term it as Nishkaama
> > karmam.  If you see Him as one like you and me then his work is nishkaama
> > karmam that is different from a person who does a karma with the fruit of
> it
> > in mind.  If you see him as the entire prapancham working to preserve
> > Himself then you
>  can even term it as kaamya karmam!
> >
> > So when you see a Gnani as one who has identified himself with God then
> you
> > see him as doing nishkaama karmam.
> >
> > As soon as you use the word God or Easwara (pathi) then pasu as a
> separate
> > entity (jeeva) is sine qua non.  From this standpoint you have both
> dwaitha
> > and visishtaadvaita philosophies elucidating the role and goal of these
> two
> > entities.
> >
> > In Advaitha we have a slightly different understanding.  A gnaani is seen
> to
> > do karma due to praarabhda but as far as he is concerned he has no
> > attachment with his own body or that of the universe.  They simply do not
> > exist for him.
> >
> > This is how I happened to write earlier as "(c) Therefore a person does a
> > karma 'impelled' by his ahamkaara (shall we say that this is destined!).
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Nov 10, 2009
>  at 2:31 AM, Sunil Bhattacharjya <
> > sunil_bhattacharjya at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Anbuji,
> >>
> >> It happened exactly as I feared. I said "This is to say in short. A guru
> >> may elaborate this  in an hour-long or a day-long lecture."  I should
> have
> >> elaborated what I said. A small attempt follows:
> >>
> >> Look at this way. A jnani, the jivanmukta, who sees through the veil of
> >> Maya, who sees "Sarvam khalvidam Brahma" too has to work while living in
> >> this world like Lord Krishna too performed work. What do you think the
> >> attitude to the work thay have or had ? I was referring to that
> attitude. A
> >> true Niskaama karmi has and must have that attitude. I call this type of
> >> person only as  the Niskaama karmi.
>  Are you calling  all the work done by
> >> everybody all the time as niskaama karma?  When a person has the right
> >> attitude towards doing Niskaama karma his behaviour pattern changes
> entirely
> >> even though it might some take time for fachieving that.  A whole lot of
> >> things change with Samadristi. When Lord Buddha was accused by a woman
> of
> >> molesting her he smiled and felt pity for her. Can you smile when people
> >> accuse you falsely?  If you give  some examples of the niskaama karma,
> which
> >> according to you are being done by everybody all the time, we can
> analyse
> >> them
> >>  here and now. Nice to know from you that everybody in the world had
> >> overcome his or her personal desires.
> >>
> >> Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya
> >>
> >>
> >> --- On Mon, 11/9/09, Anbu sivam2 <anbesivam2 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> From: Anbu sivam2 <anbesivam2 at gmail.com>
> >> Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] A Perspective - 4
> >> To: "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta" <
> >> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> >> Date: Monday, November 9, 2009, 8:58 PM
> >>
> >> Quote: "When do we do Niskaama karma?"
> >>
> >> We all do it all the time!  Though unconsciously.  We do it because of
> >> love!!
> >>
> >> 'Aathmanasthu kaamaaya sarvam priyam bhavathi' says the Veda.  This
> >> AATHMAKAAMAM is so very natural!
> >>
>
> >> So tell me do people really do nishkaama karmam on the basis of
> >> samadrishti?
> >>
> >> Karma is maaya.  Gnaanis are beyond it.  This is Vedantham.
> >>
> >> Aagamists keep karma and maayai separate and apart.
> >>
> >> On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 5:28 PM, Sunil Bhattacharjya <
> >> sunil_bhattacharjya at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Ambuji,
> >> >
> >> > Yes, you got the point. When do we do Niskaama karma? When we have the
> >> > Samadrishti we think that other's interest is as important as mine. >
> Here
> >> the
> >> > Samadrishti and love are synonymous. Lord Krishna said in the Uttara >
> Gita
> >> > "Sarvatra Samadarshinaam". It means a Samadarshi can  can see God
> >>
>  > everywhere, which itself is the Brahmajnana.
> >> >
> >> > As regards the sequence of logic I would say that it is a fuzzy logic.
> >> When
> >> > you do Nishkaama work you have the Samadrishti and when you have
> >> Samadrishti
> >> > you do Nishkaama work. This is to say in short. A gurur may elaborate
> >> this
> >> > in an hour-long or a day-long lecture.
> >> >
> >> > Bande Krishnam Jagadgurum.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --- On Mon, 11/9/09, Anbu sivam2 <anbesivam2 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > From: Anbu sivam2 <anbesivam2 at gmail.com>
> >> > Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] A Perspective - 4
> >> > To: "A
>  discussion group for Advaita Vedanta" <
> >> > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> >> > Date: Monday, November 9, 2009, 4:29 AM
> >> >
> >> > Nishkaama karma is not necessarily a karma dedicated to the lord.  Any
> >> > karma
> >> > done for the benefit of someone else is nishkaama karma.  Therefore
> the
> >> > basis of nishkaama karma is LOVE.
> >> >
> >> > THE ROOT OF LOVE IS AATHMAKAAMAM.  This constantly happens in everyone
> >> > unconciously.
> >> >
> >> > If one does not have the love no vairagya can enable the person to
> >> perform
> >> > nishkaama karma.    You have to check on the sequence of the logic of
> >> your
> >> > argument.
> >>
>  >
> >> > GNANA is the conscious knowledge of 'who am I', the realization that >
> one
> >> is
> >> > Sat-Chit-Aananda.  This cannot be attained without the help of the >
> Guru.
> >> >
> >> > Dwaithis do not believe in the greatness of the Guru.  For advaitins >
> the
> >> > Guru is supreme for he alone brings the release.  Even God has to come
> > to
> >> > him in the form of the Guru to be of ultimate use to him.  Such is the
> >> > greatness of the Guru.
> >> >
> >> > On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 5:23 AM, Sunil Bhattacharjya <
> >> > sunil_bhattacharjya at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > Anbuji,
> >> > >
> >> > > (f)
> >> > > The highest jnana is oneness
>  with the Lord. No jnana is available
> >> without
> >> > > the grace of God. Only in our Ahamkar we think that we can acquire
> >> Jnana.
> >> > My
> >> > > personal belief is that once one achieves the vairagya, which is so
> >> > > necessary for being able to perform Niskaama karma, one does not
> have
> >> to
> >> > > look back.God will give or arrange to give  the jana that the > >
> niskaama
> >> > karmi
> >> > > is no different from Him. Once a person gets the jnana by His grace
> >> then
> >> > he
> >> > > may leave the separateness on his or her Videhamukti or may not part
> >> with
> >> > > the deha till a futuredate willingly as Hanuman is said to have
> done.
> >> > >
> >> > > g)
> >> > > Yes the Lord will help. Guru may come in  diferent
>  form. Did not
> >> > Dattatreya
> >> > > have 24 gurus each so different from the other.
> >> > >
> >> > > --- On Sun, 11/8/09, Anbu sivam2 <anbesivam2 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > From: Anbu sivam2 <anbesivam2 at gmail.com>
> >> > > Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] A Perspective - 4
> >> > > To: "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta" <
> >> > > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> >> > > Date: Sunday, November 8, 2009, 3:23 PM
> >> > >
> >> > > Sunilji,
> >> > >
> >> > >
>  (a) All karmas, irrespective of the fact it is kaamya karma or
> >> otherwise,
> >> > > bear fruit.  If they don't bear fruit then karmas would be > >
> meaningless.
> >> > >
> >> > > (b) No karma is possible without 'ahamkaaram' the causality that > >
> impels
> >> > one
> >> > > to do.
> >> > >
> >> > > (c) Therefore a person does a karma 'impelled' by his ahamkaara > >
> (shall
> >> we
> >> > > say that this is destined!).  He covets the fruit for himself or he
> >> > > dedicates it to Eawara - this is his option.
> >> > >
> >> > > (d) A person who covets the fruit has to come to enjoy it.  This is
> > > the
> >> > > cause of janma.  A person who does not covet has no reason to be > >
> born.
> >> > >
> >> > > (e) Easwara
>  who is the karmaphala dhaatha would have no reason to > > cause
> >> > the
> >> > > birth of a jeeva if he had dedicated all the fruits of his karmas to
> >> > > Easwara.  But would that be a true release?
> >> > >
> >> > > (f) A true release is freedom from ignorance.  A jeeva who has
> >> dedicated
> >> > > the
> >> > > fruits of his karma out of his love for Easwara is still ignorant. >
> > It
> >> is
> >> > > not logical to say that a person desiring the knowledge of the Self
> >> would
> >> > > then go about performing karma and dedicateing its fruit to Easwara.
> >> > > Actually
> >> > > a person's desire for knowledge arises from his realization that all
> >> > karmas
> >> > > are vain ultimately.
> >> > >
> >> > > (g)
>  This is where the point made in (a) comes to play.  Nishkaama > > karma
> >> > > bears its fruit to the jeeva who performed it by way of his
> acquiring > > a
> >> > > Guru.  Easwara himself comes to him in the form of a Guru and
> teaches
> >> him
> >> > > the knowledge of the Self.  Aachaaryavaan PurushO Veda.  The jeeva >
> > then
> >> > > knows who he is and gets released.
> >> > >
> >> > > Krishna was the Guru and the Gopis were his sishyas and they learnt
> >> their
> >> > > Oneness with Him through his leelas.  This shows that the teaching
> >> comes
> >> > in
> >> > > different forms and ways from a Guru who himself dons various forms.
> >> > >  Arunachala mountain was Bhagavan Ramana's Guru.  He can even be
> >> > formless.
> >> >
>  >
> >> > > This is the scheme of things with regard to Nishkaama karma.
> >> > >
> >> > > This may perhaps answer your question:  "After doing Niaskaama karma
> >> has
> >> > he
> >> > > to worry if he would have the fate of Trishanku or will he fall to >
> > the
> >> > ways
> >> > > full of desire?
>
>
>
>
>
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