[Advaita-l] sanyAsa in shankara vedAnta - Reply -2

[Bhaskar YR]

bhaskar :

Here sarvakarma  saNyAsa does not mean popularly known saNyAsa, shankara 
clarifies here  though from the vyAvahArik point we could see the 'indriya 
cheshta', it is  sublated (bAdhita) by the real jnAna and hence whatever 
appears as 'karma'  to us (loukika-s) it is 'akarma' only for the jnAni. 

Sri S prabhuji :

Let us see what Shankara is saying here "And hence - because of this Jnana 
- he becomes "fit to renounce all works"
i.e. he acquires the necessary qualification for vidwat sanyasa. By no 
stretch of imagination does this mean the term "sannyasi" means someone 
who has not physically renounced all actions! 

bhaskar : 

whether it is physical or mental that depends on the Ashrama that 
samyagdarshi belongs to...If this samyagdarshi is a formal saNyAsi he does 
(seeming) action for Kevala jeevana mAtrArtham, if he is a gruhasthA, he 
does (seeming) action for lOka saMgraha...that is the reason why shankara 
says : pravruttena chet lOkasaMgrahArthaM nivruttena chet jeevana 
mAtrArthaM taM...if it is not still clear to you, kindly read shankara 
bhAshya on geeta 5th chapter 19th verse.

bhaskar : 

In geeta (5-19) shankara says : idaM tu sarvakarmasaNyAsavi shayaM 
prastutaM and continues  in geeta (6-2) : yaM sarvakarma tat 
phalatyAgalakshaNam paramArtha saNyAsaM iti prAhuH...again it is clear 
here that both paramArtha saNyAsa and sarvakArma saNyAsa are one and the 
same and paramArtha saNyAsa is nothing but paramArthadarshi. 


Sri S prabhuji : 

Please read the next sentence in the bhashya for 6.2 Bhaskar-ji.. ..yaM 
sarvakarma tat phalatyAgalakshaNam paramArtha saNyAsaM iti 
prAhuH...karmayogas ya pravrttilakshanasya tadvipareetena 
nivrrtilakshanena. .etc."On the basis of what common characteristic are 
identified the two OPPOSED STATES - karmayoga and REAL renunciation? 

bhaskar : 

thanks for giving the remaining portion of the bhAshya vAkya...it rather 
proves my point more clearly...But you are again diluted that beauty of 
bhAshya vAkya by giving the special emphasis on 'bAhya vesha' of a karma 
yOgi & saNyAsi by giving the below example. Let us see how : 

Sri S prabhuji :

As an example you have a beggar playing the role of a King - and one can 
ask what is the common characteristic of this beggar and the Kinig? They 
both are wearing a crown! One cannot take this to mean a beggar and King 
are the same. Now one may praise the beggar and say "he looks Royal" - 
this doesnt make him a King. That is what Shankara also clarifies here 
with regards to a karmayogi - "that this concession is mentioned ONLY as a 
commendation or praise "stutyathah" which is NOT to be taken literally! 
Not sure how you missed reading/mentioning that part! 

bhaskar : 

Go back and see what shankara says...he is not talking about the external 
appearance of the karma yOgi & saNyAsi..Here shankara explicitly says 
while answering to an objection : naisha dOshaH, kayAchit guNavruttyA 
ubhayasya saMpipAdaishitatvAt, karmaphalasaMkalpa saNyAsAt saNyAsitvaM, 
yOgAngatvena cha karmAnushTAnAt, karmaphala saMkalpasya cha chitta 
vikshepa hetOH parityAgAt yOgitvaM cha iti gaUNAm ubhayaM...Please note 
prabhuji, shankara does not talking about paramahamsa saNyAsi's loin cloth 
& janakAdi kings corwn!! He is calling a karma yOgi as amonk  by virtue of 
his having given up desire for the results of actions (karmaphala saNyAsa) 
which is more of a mental status rather than an external ornaments. 
Moreover shankara clarifies here  both are used in a figurative sense and 
it is not absolutely  meant in the primary sense.  I hope, atleast now you 
would realize how irrelevant your above example of 'crown of a begger'  to 
the present context of discussion.   

bhaskar : 

(c) aksharOpAsakAnAM (meditation on the immutable) nivrutta sarvaishaNAnAM 

(who have renounced all desires) saNyAsinAM paramAthajnAna nishTAnAM 
(steadfast in the knowledge) dharmajAtaM prakrAntaM upasaMharati (geeta 
bhAshya introduction to 12th chapter 20th verse)...Here also shankara 
implied that paramArtha jnAnanishTe is nothing but paramArtha saNyAsa. 

Sri S prabhuji :

Once again for Shankara ONLY THOSE WHO HAVE EMRACED SANNYASA CAN BE 
STEADFAST IN KNOWLEDGE - not the other way around 

bhaskar : 

And once again this saNyAsa does not have the limitation of loin cloth & 
bhikshAcharya...it is something related to STEADFAST IN KNOWLEDGE..So, by 
giving over emphasization on external appearance of the saNyAsi, you are 
pushing aside the significance of the concept of saNyAsa in shankara 
vedAnta. 

Sri S prabhuji : 

(everyone who is steadfast in knowledge is a "sannyasi"!. .) as you imply. 
He has made this amply clear in numerous portions - you can refer to my 
ongoing series for a sampling of these. 

bhaskar : 

NO, what I am saying is, everyone who is steadfast in knowledge NOT 
NECESSARILY MUST BE A SANYASI (invariably in all cases, like a VIDHI) with 
a loin cloth & bhiksha...He may be a boy like nachiketa, devata like yama 
dharma or a king like janaka or naked yOgi like saMvarta...enough said on 
this.. 

bhaskar :

It is clear from the above references that according to shankara saNyAsa 
in the real sense is nothing but samyagjnAna (the right knowledge).

Sri S prabhuji : 

My response:
This I am afraid is quite simply a misrepresentation of Shankara's 
position. 

bhaskar : 

see shankara geeta bhAshya in detail at various places shankara clarifies 
how paramArthadarshana, jnAnanishTe and sarvakarma saNyAsa are all one and 
the same...then you decide your self who is misreading shankara bhAshya. 

bhaskar :
____________ _________ ___ 
Here the right knowledge itself, has been labelled as 'saNyAsa' par 
excellence (paramArtha saNyAsa. One can also refer here shankara's 
commentary on 18th chapter 49th verse for further details. 

Sri S prabhuji : 

This is an excerpt from his bhashya in that section Bhaskar-ji.
“…..Even after removing the defects in the organs and the mind, there 
arises the possibility of acceptance of gifts either for the maintenance 
of the body or for righteous duties; discarding them as well, i.e. 
BECOMING A MENDICANT OF THE PARAHAMSA class; nirmamah, free from the idea 
of possession, becoming devoid of the idea of 'me' and 'mine' even with 
regard to so much as one's body and life; and for the very same reason, 
santah, serene, withdrawn; the monk who is effortless and steadfast in 
Knowledge, kalpate, becomes fit; brahma-bhuyaya, for becoming Brahman…" 


bhaskar : 

would you give Sanskrit original here??  Moreover, I am not able to 
understand what you are trying to convey here..I quoted bhAshya No. and 
you are giving the bhAshya translation without putting across your point!! 
 See prabhuji I am not arguing here against saNyAsi-s...I am trying to 
share my understanding with regard to jnana & mOksha that which is not 
restricted to any of the Ashrama.  In that effort, I tried to convey what 
exactly a paramArtha saNyAsa means..

bhaskar : 

As said above, here shankara in his commentary explains that saNyAsa is 
EITHER right knowledge OR the renunciation of all actions through that 
knowledge. 

Sri S prabhuji : 

Please reconcile this statement of your with the Br Up bhashya you 
yourself quote - "Knowers of Brahman renounce their homes and embrace 
sannyasa" and many many such statement of Shankara. Also see further 
below. 

bhaskar : 

Where is the need for reconciliation here??  You may note that I am not at 
all denying the POSSIBILITY of sanyAsa after jnAna for brahmaNa-s...Note 
the word brAhmaNa here, shankara here says : ONLY brahmaNa-s have the 
adhikAra to take sanyAsa...So, your contention that SANYASA IS A MUST 
AFTER JNANA & THIS SANYAASI MUST ALWAYS WEAR LOIN CLOTH & SHOULD BEG IS 
FARFETCHED and out of the scope of shankara's 'vaishAlyatha'.   

bhaskar :
____________ _________ ___
Can we say this declaration of geetAchArya pertains ONLY to people who are 
in suffron clothes?? NOWAY, the knower of that truth would think that he 
is doing nothing while he sees, hears touches, smells etc. he would always 
bear in mind that ONLY the senses function on their objects. (geeta 5 - 8 
& 9 verses) irrespective of his Ashrama. 

Sri S prabhuji : 

Bhaskar-ji with regards to Geeta verse 5.8 and 5.9 - Shankara clarifies 
"samyagdarshiinah tasya sarvakarmasannye eva adhikarah"// "the right seer 
is alone FIT TO RENOUNCE ALL WORKS." If according to your earlier position 
"Sannyasa IS samyag darshanah and Samyag Darshanah is Sannyasa" this 
sentence that One with samyag darshanah ALONE is FIT TO RENOUNCE becomes 
meaningless. I hope the difference is quite clear to you. 

bhaskar : 

No, you are getting confused between paramArtha saNyAsa, vidvat saNyAsa & 
vividisha saNyAsa...there is another type of saNyAsa i.e. smArtha 
saNyAsa..So, you are mixing all these types and making your own statements 
on what would be the status of saNyAsa.