[Advaita-l] Jnana-karma samuccaya.
bhaskar.yr at in.abb.com
Thu Dec 2 03:27:41 CST 2010
Atma sAkShAtkAra or enlightenment will not take away the Jnani's capacity
> I didnot say Atma jnAna makes one an impotent, I've been saying Atma
jnAna reveals the fact that the jnAni is ever ashareeri. It is not an
additional load of information in the mind of the jnAni, it is an
intuitive experience of the real jnAni. Capacity for maithuna &
utilization of that capacity that too at godhooLi kAlaM means there is
linga bedha, drushti bedha, deha bedha, kAmAturata, kAmAdi klesha, ajnAna,
vipareeta pratyaya etc. etc. in the jnAni...And there is no meaning in
saying jnAni is krutakrutya, AptakAma if he engages himself in activities
like this. If your jnAni is belong to this low order, kindly keep him
with you only, donot present him as paramArtha jnAni of advaita tradition.
There are several examples in the scripture and in the world to show that
a Jnani, that is after enlightenment, did engage in maithuna and sired
> Oh..that means there is no meaning in observing shama, damAdi sAdhana
chatushtaya, brahmacharya etc. or you mean to say before enlightenment
one should observe all these sAdhana-s but after enlightenment he can
throw away all these niyama-s and use his capacity for maithuna 'at any
time' and get offsprings like daitya-s!!?? And with this you are also
telling us there is no mandatory requirement of saNyAsa for the
jnAna...And you are also propagating an upa-siddhAnta that for the
enlightenment in jnAna mArga saNyAsa is not an obligatory vidhi...and
enlightenment can happen to any person at any point of time irrespective
of his level of chitta shuddhi and after enlightenment also like any other
ajnAni or kAmAtura he too engage in adhArmic activity, and a jnAni can
engage himself in untimely activities by succumbing to the external
> OTOH, quite contrary to your alien characteristics of the jnAni,
shankara makes it amply clear in geeta bhAshya: dehAdishu
AtmabuddhiravidvAn rAgadveshAdi prayuktaH dharmAdharmAnushTAnakrujjAyate
mriyate cha ityavagamyate...dehAdivyatirikta Atma darshinaH rAgadveshAdi
prahaNAt tadapekshadharmAdharma pravrutti upashamanaM uchayante iti
kenachit pratyAkhyAtaM shakyaM nyAyataH...It is quite evident from this
bhAshya vAkya that you are trying to float your pet theory of jnAni's kAma
krOdha as against shankara siddhAnta by giving mundane examples of
kashyapa's indulgence in sex.
There is no doubt at all about Veda Vyasa's JnAnitva. One might not say
that he had a 'strong feeling of the opposite sex' but he did indulge, as
matter of obeying the command of Satyavati, his mother, in the maithuna.
> if you want to see the 'real' maithuna kriya in the jnAni's like veda
vyAsa, you have to accept the fact that he had 'real' feeling of his
opposite sex...if not you are going against 'lOkAnubhava'...Or otherwise
jnAni's socalled activities is ONLY in the perception of ajnAni-s who
cannot think beyond BMI, in reality he does not do anying like that as he
is AptakAma & krutakrutya. etadbhudhyA buddhimAn syAt krutakrutyascha
bhArata is the assertion of geetAchArya. the pick is your, you chose the
former appropriately coz. it suits your pet theory of jnAni-s kAma krOdha.
And there is no escape from the feeling the activity brings. When someone
sprinkles water, prokShaNa, on you as asheervachana, if it is cold season,
you will feel the chill. If it is hot season, you will feel pleasant.
> so you are saying jnAni also since he has the dehAbhimAna, he would
'feel' the chill or pleasant..and there is no escapte from that feeling
which is the result of activity.
Kashyapa PrajApati is spoken of as a Jnani. There is the famous case of
Diti demanded maithuna in sandhyA kaala and Kashyapa had to oblige, much
against his will. And that is how daityas were born.
> again, according to you jnAni would yield to the external forces without
his 'svanta' buddhi / discrimination and obliges any demands of adhArmic
activity from ajnAni-s and does not care to engage himself also in that
adhArmic activity as against his 'will'!!?? What a great example of the
paramArtha jnAni you are presenting us!! BTW, did you ever care to check
with your guruji-s whether this example is appropriate to prove jnAni-s
BMI & his kAma & krOdha?? I am really curious to know.
The Master: 'Ah, lust does not vanish till God is realized. *So long as
the body lasts, a little of it continues even after realization but then
it cannot raise its head.*
> this means as long as body is there avidyAkruta kAma krOdhAdi klesha
will be there and we cannot never think of a paripUrNa vishuddha jnAni
when he is an element of kAma even after realization..Again, a paripUrNa
vishuddha jnAni can be 'seen' (!!??) ONLY after dehapAta...So, according
to you apahatapApma is only posthumous award to the jnAni. Quite contrary
to interpretation of this episode, shankara in his bhAshya clearly says :
vidwAn sa ihaiva brahma yadyapi dehavaaniva lakshyate, sa brahmaiva san
brahmApyeti, yasmAnna hi tasyAbrahmatvapariccheda hetavaH kAmAH santi,
tasmAt ihaiva brahmaiva san brahmApyeti, 'na shareerapAtOttara kAlaM'....
You can never nip in the bud what Shankara has taught as 'brahmabhAva and
dehadhAraNam' all over the prasthAna traya bhashya.
> Yes, we should not discard the paramasiddhAnta that emphasizes
vidyAvidyA cannot go hand-in-hand, and brahmabhAva reveals that sarvAtma
bhAva and brahma ekatva & jnAni's ashareeratvaM..But what I am trying to
nip in the bud is someone's pet theories of jnAni-s kAma, krOdha and his
indulgence in untimely sexual activities.
This inseparable twin-concept has been well nurtured in the scripture and
is a mammoth tree
that none can destroy.
> the 'inseparable' twin concept is mere figment of imagination in the
minds of over-readers of shankara siddhAnta. Shankara is categorically
clear when he said jnAni is brahman and he looks alike sashareeri
(dehavAniva lakshyate). And it is a fact that this mammoth tree does not
have even a piece of root in shankara's advaita vedAnta.
Sri Ramakrishna's incident clearly comes in this category. That he
succeeded in quelling the troublesome lust is also clear in that incident.
> see shankara's commentary on dhyAyato vishayAn pumsaH in
geeta...getting the thought of kAma is the sign of impure mind, if Sri
paramahaMsa 'really' suffered coz. of kAmecche than you are literally
interpreting his feeling and labelling him as second level jnAni, who,
according to you 'first' get the feeling of kAmAdi dOsha and later tries
to subside it through viveka. Have you not yourself quoted HH abhinava
vidyAteertha's message that says : not even getting the thought of want
is real vairAgya??
There is no mention of any 'questionable activity'. Only you are putting
that label on such maithuna by Veda Vyasa and the Prajapati.
> Yes, I've seen first time examples like this to prove jnAni's BMI,
avidyA lesha, kAma-krOdha etc. Ofcourse, nobody, in the traditional
frame, would like to give terrible examples like this to prove jnAni's
There is no 'reading too much' in the mundane day to day activities of a
Jnani. Shankaracharya comments for the Gita shloka: shaknoti ihaiva yaH
sODhum .....kAma-krodhodbhavam vegam sa yuktaH sa sukhI naraH (5.23)
the lakshaNa-s of someone in the grip of kAma and krodha. And most
significantly this verse is placed in between verses on the jnani
> But where does your example of kashyapa stand here?? who has
conveniently agreed to his wife's untimely demand?? where your kashyapa
maintained his sthirabuddhi when his wife put forward her demand for
untimely sex?? See how absurd your examples here..Have you not read the
subsequent verse in that same chapter?? kAmakrOdha viyuktAnAM...To those
wise men who are FREE from lust and anger..As against this bhagavaan vAni,
you are comfortably labelling kAma krOdha to jnAni-s and making them
ordinary saMsAri-s like me with an extra load of brahma jnAna in their
So, the label of kAma and krodha are not pasted by me but by Lord Krishna
> I am really surprised to see statements like this floating freely
without being questioned by anyone!! so basically you are telling us Lord
Krishna and shankara bhagavatpAda are the two main culprits who
unhesitatingly pasted the kAma, krOdha to the paramArtha jnAni.
Shankara clarifies in that very Sutrabhashyam that along with brahmabhava
which is nothing but the realization of one's ashareeratvam that there is
the unchallengable dehadhAraNam (jeevato api). You can never discard this
aspect that is surely troublesome to your theory of the jnani not having a
shareera or that it is only ajnanis that posit it for him etc. that have
basis in Vedanta / Shankara. In your conclusion Shankara and Krishna are
the ajnanis who posit a body and activities for the Jnani.
> infact, the tattusamanvayAt sUtra bhAshya plainly goes against your pet
theory and proves the ashareeratvam of the jnAni without an iota of doubt,
coz. shankara here quite clearly telling us that though 'you see' the
'living' jnAnni, he is ashareeri ONLY coz. shareeratvaM is kevala avidyAka
and ashareeratvaM is 'svabhAvika'...ashareeratvameva dharmakAryamiti
chenna...tasya svAbhAvikatvAt...please read the bhAshya vAkya carefully,
you would come to know where you erred in understanding this bhAshya
Ashareeratvam of a Jnani cannot be shown without the Jnani himself. That
is why Shankara makes it an inseparable twin concept: brahmabhAva and
> Yes, shankara telling us, the ajnAni-s, that : 'see, you fool, even if
you see the living jnAni in a 'deha', he was/is/will be always ashareeri
only, realize that sashareeratvaM is kevala avidyaka and brahmabhAva or
ashareeratvaM is svabhAvika & svarUpa of Atman.
It is not we the ajnanis that see the living sashareeri jnani but the
Lord Krishna and Shankara who are not just seeing but teaching about the
Jnani's sasheeram and its various activities in dozens of places.
> Yes, their teachings are meant for us, the ajnAni-s it is not meant to
propagate their own body, mind, intellet and socalled indulgence of
jnAni's questionable activities. Unfortunately, in your over enthusiasm
to prove your pet theory of jnAni's kAma, krOdha, you are taking all
those examples literally as if they are the real, hard & concrete
sufferings/enjoyments of the jnAni.
The ashrutakalpana (theory) 'we ajnanis seeing the living sa shareeri
no place in the Vedanta and needs to be nipped in the bud.
> ashareeratvam of the Atman is the parama siddhAnta of the advaita and
it is also a fact that he who realizes this Atman is simultaneously
realizes that he was/is/will always be ashareeri ONLY...The dangerous
tumour of jnAni-s kAma, krOdha etc. is the latest invention of socalled
cybernet tranditional vAdins...it deserved to be annihilated without any
trace. My attempt is in that direction.
Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
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