[Advaita-l] Jnana-karma samuccaya.

[Bhaskar YR]

praNAms
Hare Krishna

Atma sAkShAtkAra or enlightenment will not take away the Jnani's capacity
for maithuna. 

> I didnot say Atma jnAna makes one an impotent, I've been saying Atma 
jnAna reveals the fact that the jnAni is ever ashareeri.  It is not an 
additional load of information in the mind of the jnAni, it is an 
intuitive experience of the real jnAni. Capacity for maithuna & 
utilization of that capacity that too at godhooLi kAlaM means there is 
linga bedha, drushti bedha, deha bedha, kAmAturata, kAmAdi klesha, ajnAna, 
vipareeta pratyaya etc. etc. in the jnAni...And there is no meaning in 
saying jnAni is krutakrutya, AptakAma if he engages himself in activities 
like this.  If your jnAni is belong to this low order, kindly keep him 
with you only, donot present him as paramArtha jnAni of advaita tradition. 
 

There are several examples in the scripture and in the world to show that 
a Jnani, that is after enlightenment, did engage in maithuna and sired 
offspring. 

> Oh..that means there is no meaning in observing shama, damAdi sAdhana 
chatushtaya, brahmacharya etc. or you mean to say  before enlightenment 
one should observe all these sAdhana-s but after enlightenment he can 
throw away all these niyama-s and use his capacity for maithuna 'at any 
time' and get offsprings like daitya-s!!?? And with this you are also 
telling us there is no mandatory requirement of saNyAsa for the 
jnAna...And you are also propagating an upa-siddhAnta that for the 
enlightenment in jnAna mArga saNyAsa is not an obligatory vidhi...and 
enlightenment can happen to any person at any point of time irrespective 
of his level of chitta shuddhi and after enlightenment also like any other 
ajnAni or kAmAtura he too engage in adhArmic activity, and a jnAni can 
engage himself in untimely activities by succumbing to the external 
forces/pressure. 

> OTOH, quite contrary to your alien characteristics of the jnAni, 
shankara makes it amply clear in geeta bhAshya:  dehAdishu 
AtmabuddhiravidvAn rAgadveshAdi prayuktaH dharmAdharmAnushTAnakrujjAyate 
mriyate cha ityavagamyate...dehAdivyatirikta Atma darshinaH rAgadveshAdi 
prahaNAt tadapekshadharmAdharma pravrutti upashamanaM uchayante iti 
kenachit pratyAkhyAtaM shakyaM nyAyataH...It is quite evident from this 
bhAshya vAkya that you are trying to float your pet theory of jnAni's kAma 
krOdha as against shankara siddhAnta by giving mundane examples of 
kashyapa's indulgence in sex.

There is no doubt at all about Veda Vyasa's JnAnitva.  One might not say
that he had a 'strong feeling of the opposite sex' but he did indulge, as 
a
matter of obeying the command of Satyavati, his mother, in the maithuna.

>  if you want to see the 'real' maithuna kriya in the jnAni's like veda 
vyAsa, you have to accept the fact that he had 'real' feeling of his 
opposite sex...if not you are going against 'lOkAnubhava'...Or otherwise 
jnAni's socalled activities is ONLY in the perception of ajnAni-s who 
cannot think beyond BMI, in reality he does not do anying like that as he 
is AptakAma & krutakrutya.  etadbhudhyA buddhimAn syAt krutakrutyascha 
bhArata is the assertion of geetAchArya.  the pick is your, you chose the 
former appropriately coz. it suits your pet theory of jnAni-s kAma krOdha.


And there is no escape from the feeling the activity brings.  When someone
sprinkles water, prokShaNa, on you as asheervachana, if it is cold season,
you will feel the chill.  If it is hot season, you will feel pleasant.

>  so you are saying jnAni also since he has the dehAbhimAna, he would 
'feel' the chill or pleasant..and there is no escapte from that feeling 
which is the result of activity. 

Kashyapa PrajApati is spoken of as a Jnani.  There is the famous case of 
how
Diti demanded maithuna in sandhyA kaala and Kashyapa had to oblige, much
against his will.  And that is how daityas were born.

> again, according to you jnAni would yield to the external forces without 
his 'svanta' buddhi / discrimination and obliges any demands of adhArmic 
activity from ajnAni-s and does not care to engage himself also in that 
adhArmic activity as against his 'will'!!?? What a great example of the 
paramArtha jnAni you are presenting us!!  BTW, did you ever care to check 
with your guruji-s whether this example is appropriate to prove jnAni-s 
BMI & his kAma & krOdha??  I am really curious to know. 
 

The Master: 'Ah, lust does not vanish till God is realized.  *So long as 
the body lasts, a little of it continues even after realization but then 
it cannot raise its head.* 

>  this means as long as body is there avidyAkruta kAma krOdhAdi klesha 
will be there and we cannot never think of a paripUrNa vishuddha jnAni 
when he is an element of kAma even after realization..Again, a paripUrNa 
vishuddha jnAni can be 'seen' (!!??) ONLY after dehapAta...So, according 
to you apahatapApma is only posthumous award to the jnAni. Quite contrary 
to interpretation of this episode, shankara in his bhAshya clearly says : 
vidwAn sa ihaiva brahma yadyapi dehavaaniva lakshyate, sa brahmaiva san 
brahmApyeti, yasmAnna hi tasyAbrahmatvapariccheda hetavaH kAmAH santi, 
tasmAt ihaiva brahmaiva san brahmApyeti, 'na shareerapAtOttara kAlaM'.... 

You can never nip in the bud what Shankara has taught as 'brahmabhAva and
dehadhAraNam' all over the prasthAna traya bhashya. 

>  Yes, we should not discard the paramasiddhAnta that emphasizes 
vidyAvidyA cannot go hand-in-hand, and brahmabhAva reveals that sarvAtma 
bhAva and brahma ekatva & jnAni's ashareeratvaM..But what I am trying to 
nip in the bud is someone's pet theories of jnAni-s kAma, krOdha and his 
indulgence in untimely sexual activities. 

This inseparable twin-concept has been well nurtured in the scripture and 
is a mammoth tree
that none can destroy.

>  the 'inseparable' twin concept is mere figment of imagination in the 
minds of over-readers of shankara siddhAnta.  Shankara is categorically 
clear when he said jnAni is brahman and he looks alike sashareeri 
(dehavAniva lakshyate).  And it is a fact that this mammoth tree does not 
have even a piece of root in shankara's advaita vedAnta. 

Sri Ramakrishna's incident clearly comes in this category.  That he 
succeeded in quelling the troublesome lust is also clear in that incident. 


>  see shankara's commentary on dhyAyato vishayAn pumsaH in 
geeta...getting the thought of kAma is the sign of impure mind, if Sri 
paramahaMsa 'really' suffered coz. of kAmecche than you are literally 
interpreting his feeling and labelling him as second level jnAni, who, 
according to you 'first' get the feeling of kAmAdi dOsha and later tries 
to subside it through viveka.  Have you not yourself quoted HH abhinava 
vidyAteertha's message that says :  not even getting the thought of want 
is real vairAgya?? 

There is no mention of any 'questionable activity'.  Only you are putting
that label on such maithuna by Veda Vyasa and the Prajapati.

>  Yes, I've seen first time examples like this to prove jnAni's BMI, 
avidyA lesha, kAma-krOdha etc.  Ofcourse, nobody, in the traditional 
frame, would like to give terrible examples like this to prove jnAni's 
sashareeratvam. 

There is no 'reading too much' in the mundane day to day activities of a
Jnani.  Shankaracharya comments for the Gita shloka: shaknoti ihaiva yaH
sODhum .....kAma-krodhodbhavam vegam sa yuktaH sa sukhI naraH (5.23) 
giving
the lakshaNa-s of someone in the grip of kAma and krodha.  And most
significantly this verse is placed in between verses on the jnani 
lakshaNa,
like sampuTeekaraNam. 

>  But where does your example of kashyapa stand here?? who has 
conveniently agreed to his wife's untimely demand??  where your kashyapa 
maintained his sthirabuddhi when his wife put forward her demand for 
untimely sex??  See how absurd your examples here..Have you not read the 
subsequent verse in that same chapter??  kAmakrOdha viyuktAnAM...To those 
wise men who are FREE from lust and anger..As against this bhagavaan vAni, 
you are comfortably labelling kAma krOdha to jnAni-s and making them 
ordinary saMsAri-s like me with an extra load of brahma jnAna in their 
mind !!

So, the label of kAma and krodha are not pasted by me but by Lord Krishna 
and Shankara.

>  I am really surprised to see statements like this floating freely 
without being questioned by anyone!!  so basically you are telling us Lord 
Krishna and shankara bhagavatpAda are the two main culprits who 
unhesitatingly pasted the kAma, krOdha to the paramArtha jnAni. 

Shankara clarifies in that very Sutrabhashyam that along with brahmabhava
which is nothing but the realization of one's ashareeratvam that there is
the unchallengable dehadhAraNam (jeevato api).  You can never discard this
aspect that is surely troublesome to your theory of the jnani not having a
shareera or that it is only ajnanis that posit it for him etc. that have 
no
basis in Vedanta / Shankara.  In your conclusion Shankara and Krishna are
the ajnanis who posit a body and activities for the Jnani.

> infact, the tattusamanvayAt sUtra bhAshya plainly goes against your pet 
theory and proves the ashareeratvam of the jnAni without an iota of doubt, 
coz. shankara here quite clearly telling us that though 'you see' the 
'living' jnAnni, he is ashareeri ONLY coz. shareeratvaM is kevala avidyAka 
and ashareeratvaM is 'svabhAvika'...ashareeratvameva dharmakAryamiti 
chenna...tasya svAbhAvikatvAt...please read the bhAshya vAkya carefully, 
you would come to know where you erred in understanding this bhAshya 
vAkya.


Ashareeratvam of a Jnani cannot be shown without the Jnani himself.  That 
is why Shankara makes it an inseparable twin concept: brahmabhAva and 
dehadhAraNam.

>  Yes, shankara telling us, the ajnAni-s, that : 'see, you fool, even if 
you see the living jnAni in a 'deha', he was/is/will be always ashareeri 
only, realize that sashareeratvaM is kevala avidyaka and brahmabhAva or 
ashareeratvaM is svabhAvika & svarUpa of Atman.

It is not we the ajnanis that see the living sashareeri jnani but the 
Jnanis
Lord Krishna and Shankara who are not just seeing but teaching about the
Jnani's sasheeram and its various activities in dozens of places. 

>  Yes, their teachings are meant for us, the ajnAni-s it is not meant to 
propagate their own body, mind, intellet and socalled indulgence of 
jnAni's questionable activities.  Unfortunately, in your over enthusiasm 
to prove your pet theory of jnAni's kAma, krOdha,  you are taking all 
those examples literally as if they are the real, hard & concrete 
sufferings/enjoyments of the jnAni. 

The ashrutakalpana (theory) 'we ajnanis seeing the living sa shareeri 
jnani' has
no place in the Vedanta and needs to be nipped in the bud.

>  ashareeratvam of the Atman is the parama siddhAnta of the advaita and 
it is also a fact that he who realizes this Atman is simultaneously 
realizes that he was/is/will always  be ashareeri ONLY...The dangerous 
tumour of jnAni-s kAma, krOdha etc. is the latest invention of socalled 
cybernet tranditional vAdins...it deserved to be annihilated without any 
trace. My attempt is in that direction.

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
bhaskar