[Advaita-l] A perspective -20

[Anbu sivam2]

Dear Sadanandaji,

Pranaams.

Since you have said it was your last posting, I suppose this response of
mine would be for the benefit of the readers.

Quote: "No knowledge can take place without the mind, including
self-knowledge."

This is not correct.  Self-awareness is not dependent on the mind for such
realization is an inalienable right of every jeeva and therefore cannot be
conditioned.  A person has misidentification by ignorance due to the play of
Maya.  Mind is a tool of Maya if I am allowed to put it that way. Guru
removes the ignorance and the misidentification is destroyed and the Self is
revealed.  The form and manner in which the Guru removes the ignorance is
not to be asserted in any particular way.

Bhagavan Ramana's Guru was the Holy Hill of Arunachala.  Bhagavan explicitly
did not say this but when someone asked him: "Bhagavan, you say there can be
no release without a Guru.  So tell us who is your Guru." Bhagavan merely
turned his head towards the Hill and nodded indicating that the Hill was his
Guru.  For people like you the fact that Bhagavan had the Hill as his Guru
may be a belief for that is how the mind plays with its duality of belief
and disbelief so we are to get caught in its trap.  Mind as you know like
all other things in the prakrthi is made up of opposites.  IT IS NOT WISE TO
THINK THAT THE MIND CAN BE TAMED NOT TO VACILLATE.  SUCH ATTEMPT WOULD
DESTROY ITS SWAROOPAM AND MIND WOULD NOT PERMIT IT.  Besides, the content of
the mind is truly false and therefore why insist that one goes by it?

 If Bhagavan had openly said that the Hill was his Guru then there would
have been a debate whether a hill can be a Guru.   A judgement would then be
pronounced that a Hill can be a Guru cannot be proved and so Bhagavan didn't
really have a Guru and other variations of this argument putting Bhagavan in
bad light to say the least.

In Ramayana the mere touch of the foot of Sri Rama removed the
misidentification of Ahalya with the rock.  Again for some people it is just
a belief.  The word belief is often used euphemistically indicating that it
makes no sense.  All Bhaagavathaas believe that the Gopis got release in
their play with Lord Krishna but such would not be release for some who
would hold that the intellect by its dissection and discovery alone is the
liberator.  The reason I took the trouble to post my commentary on
Sivaanandalahari is to show that our AachaaryaaL was very much emphatic on
the bhakthi maarga and insisted on the surreder at the lotus feet of
ParamEswara.

Truly the mind has the dual role of hiding the 'I' and then finding it out!
One can play by its rule OR surrender to the Guru and get relieved of this
mind.  It is a choice.  The reason a person would surrender to a Guru is to
relieve himself of the thaapathrayam and nothing else. The Guru will kill
the mind rather than delight it with his feedings.  Actually the real Guru
will make the sishya cry and cry by putting down his ego and dumping it. The
death of this mind which is the root cause of thaapathrayam, alone is the
liberation.

My remark below is not directed at Sadanandaji whom I hold in great respect.

I see this holiest nivrthi dharma is increasingly being turned into a
science fiction and is peddled around the globe.  Our AachaaryaaL knew of
this and sang "jatilO mundi lunchita kesa: kaashayaambara
bahukruthavEsha:............ ".  In his introduction to the commentary on
Bhagavath Geetha AchaaryaaL says that the Lord taught the two fold dharma of
the pravrthi and the nivrithi to Arjuna.  The Lord did tell Arjuna that he
was not qualified for nivrthi dharma even though he taught it to him.  And
He did explain why Arjuna was not qualified.  The fact that this nivrthi
dharma is not for those who are not qualified is often ignored by those who
found it interesting.  The result is that it remains interesting, that is
all.

Performing nithya karmas and raising children in our dharma is being
abandoned in astonishing speed in favour of this secular poison of giving
importance to the intellect.  Many of the neo-Gurus have not even identified
themselves with Hindu religion holding that all religions are equal.  It is
a pity.  Our AachaaryaaL on the other hand appeared in this earth to bring
about the revival of varnaasrama dharma and against its destruction sought
by other religions.

Sri GurubyO Namaha
Anbu

On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 3:05 AM, Kuntimaddi Sadananda <
ksadananda108 at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 6:45 PM, Anbu sivam2 <anbesivam2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Even in vyavahaarika sattha *we all know who we are* without the medium
> of
> > the mind.
> >
> > Shree Anbu -PraNAms
>
>
>
> This may be my last mail on this topic since I had discussed the role of
> the
> mind in the previous posts.
>
>
>
> No. from my understanding what you say is not correct. No knowledge can
> take
> place without the mind, including self-knowledge. There is no mind in the
> suShupti. Mind is needed even to know that I am ignorant. Only in the
> waking
> state when the mind is awake, I make a statement that I did not know
> anything in the deep sleep state, since mind was not there to know that I
> was ignorant at that time. Sureswara discusses this point eloberately in
> his
> Naiskarmya Siddhi.
>
>
>
> In vyavahaara, I identify with the BMI where ahankaara which is part of
> antaHkaraNa or Mind in general term with identification as I am this, where
> this includes starting with intellect, mind and body- So without the mind,
> I
> would do not know who I am is. Mind is absent in the deep sleep state or it
> is in potential form - so is my notion of who am I. I do not know even
> ignorance too since mind is absent. With the mind present no realization -
> says amRitabindu Upanishad. This has been analyzed by Sureshwara and
> Vidyaranya exhaustively.
>
>
>
> About animals’ and in fact for that matter any body else’s realization is
> matter of faith.  If you believe that, let that be so - a belief.  .
> Beliefs
> are unquestionable since they are beliefs.
>
>
>
> About the 10th story, I will be analyzing soon.
> Hari Om!
> Sadananda
>
>
>
>
> > In the vexed example the intellect never found the tenth man.  Is it not
> > the
> > fact?
> >
> > I am saying this to show that the role of the intellect is over-blown.
>  It
> > doesn't deserve all these credits.
> >
> > Even though we know who we are, thanks to the intellect we slip into
> > believing that we are the incomplete jeeva who is born and dead.  It is
> > only
> > when the Guru comes to you and tells those magic words "Thath Thwam Asi"
> > that you realize that you are complete and full and you are none other
> than
> > the Parabrahmam.  At that moment all other arguments that had justified
> > this
> > Mahavaakya is lost by the wayside. Intellect has no way of bringing about
> > this realization.  The realization is for you, by you and of you.  And
> when
> > it happens the intellect and all other units of the prakrithi vanishes
> like
> > the mist before the sun.  In one way the realization is the actual
> killing
> > of the intellect.
> >
> > Bhagavan Ramana has given moksha to animate and inanimate objects and
> there
> > is no role for the intellect in them at all.  This is the prathyaksha
> > pramaaNam for many of us.  Even though he became 'famous' because of his
> > superior arguments that fed the imagination of the intellectuals in his
> > exposition of 'who am I' he always told the seekers to give up the
> > intellect. As you know the intellect is part of the ahamkara that one has
> > to
> > lose in order to gain Self-Realization.  It, the intellect, is a
> hindrance
> > to attaining mOksha.  When an ordinary person who witnessed a great
> debate
> > between Bhagavan and the intellectuals later approached Bhagavan and
> asked
> > him if he as saamaanyan will have hope because he is not versed in the
> > Vedas
> > etc.  And to him Bhagavan said such knowledge is no pre-requisite and he
> is
> > more than qualified for he has reached the Guru.
> >
> > You have to remember that the intellect delights in reordering the many
> > into
> > its own concept of harmony.  Take away the many, the intellect pines and
> > dies.
> >
> >
> > Subhamasthu.
> > Anbu
> >
> > On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 8:37 PM, Kuntimaddi Sadananda <
> >  ksadananda108 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Anbuji - PraNAms -
> > >
> > > On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 7:16 PM, Anbu sivam2 <anbesivam2 at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > "Paramaarthika sattha is beyond the reach of the human mind and it is
> > > > unnegateable.  Yet the intellect can infer that this is the only
> > Reality
> > > > that is FULL."  There are a lot of Vedic pramanas to support this
> view
> > > and
> > > > I
> > > > am sure you will agree.
> > > >
> > > Here is my perspective for clarification.
> > >
> > > The statement - Yet the intellect can infer that this is the only
> reality
> > > that is full - cought my attention.
> > > I must say it is not inference by the intellect. It is the direct
> > > perception
> > > as in the tenth man. I see directly the light of consciousness as
> > saakshii
> > > as reflected illumination by the mind or intellect - just as during the
> > day
> > > time the house is bright by the reflected sunlight all over -I say I
> see
> > > the
> > > the sunlight is all over even the sun is directly not seen- cannot be
> > seen
> > > too.
> > > All pervading consciousness cannot be -seen-. Yet using the mind as
> > > reflecting mediuam I see the light of consciousness that is getting
> > > reflected in every thought that rises in the mind. I am neither known
> nor
> > > unknown but the very knowing principle - says Kena.
> > >
> > > Hari Om!
> > > Sadananda
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > The aim is to lose the ignorance of you being the tenth man.  As the
> > > story
> > > > points out the intellect is not the only way to lose that ignorance.
> In
> > > all
> > > > our scriptures they proclaim loudly the importance of the role of
> this
> > > > Chaithanyam viz. the Guru that removes the ignorance.  Simply,
> > > > "Aachaaryavaan PurushO Vedha:"
> > > >
> > > > In respect of the intellect please do not forget that it belongs to
> the
> > > > prakrthi.  The dormant intellect is of thaamasic nature getting swept
> > > away
> > > > by the forces of nature.  As Bhagavan Ramana says:  'Dehaathma
> > > > buddhEgnyajadau samaanau'.
> > > >
> > > > So this intellect is sought to be awakened by means of prayer to
> > Savithri
> > > > by
> > > > the Gayathri manthra.  The swabhaavam of the active intellect is to
> > > > discriminate.  The final discrimination would be for it to
> discriminate
> > > > between the Real and the unreal like the kindling wood that releases
> > the
> > > > fire but as you would know that this kidling wood has also to be
> > > consigned
> > > > into that fire!
> > > >
> > > > Yet in all these processes you would notice that the intellect as the
> > > inert
> > > > entity has no way of doing anything on its own!!
> > > >
> > > > Actually the entire mithya of jagath has been perfected and upheld by
> > > this
> > > > intellect.  Can you deny it?  The intellect is much rather a
> generator
> > of
> > > > falsehood and that is its swaroopa lakshanam.  One should stop
> fooling
> > > > around with that.
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > > Anbu
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 7:28 AM, Kuntimaddi Sadananda <
> > > > ksadananda108 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Shree Ambuji - PraNams
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 3:44 AM, Anbu sivam2 <anbesivam2 at gmail.com
> >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Perhaps my earlier posting on Sivaanandhalahari dealing with this
> > > > subject
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > three parts may be of help.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Perhaps.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > .  Advaitha teaches us that giving up the intellect enables one
> > > > > > to become one with this Reality.
> > > > > >
> > > > > I think it has already been pointed that what is to be given up is
> > not
> > > > > intellect but misconceptions of the intellect. With intellect only
> > one
> > > > has
> > > > > to realize. Without the intellect - one is as good as animal -
> > budhyaa
> > > > > vihiinaaH pashubhi samaanaaH - says niiti vaakyam.
> > > > > With mind alone one need to realize. without the mind reflecting
> the
> > > > > illuminating consciousness, one cannot recognize the all pervading
> > > light
> > > > of
> > > > > consciousness. With mirro alone one can see the face - one should
> not
> > > > > misunderstand that image is the real. Similalry with the reflecting
> > > > > consciousness in the intellect, one has to use viveka to shift
> > > attention
> > > > to
> > > > > the original using that very reflection. That is what nitya anitya
> > > vastu
> > > > > viveka involves. Giving up the image as not the original is
> sanyaasa.
> > > > > Shifting attention to the orginal using the image reflection is
> yoga.
> > > > >
> > > > > The mithyaa aspect discussed was from adviata siddhi - definitions
> of
> > > > > falsity.
> > > > >
> > > > > Hope this helps
> > > > >
> > > > > Hari Om!
> > > > > Sadananda
> > > >  > _______________________________________________
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