[Advaita-l] Two types of Atma jnAni-s & their approach to real life situation

[Vidyasankar Sundaresan]

> Sri Vidya prabhuji :
> 
> In my view, the key lies in recognizing where the kAma and krodha lie or
> arise and who is worried about correcting it. 
> 
> bhaskar :
> 
> According to the definition provided by Sri Subbu prabhuji, it is the 
> second type of jnAni who is having the kAma krOdha mentally and he is 
> striving to 'correct it' and elevate himself to 'first' category of jnAni.


I will let Sri Subrahmanian clarify whether you are stating his position
correctly or not, and respond only to points you raised about my 
statements.

 

> 
> Sri Vidya prabhuji :
> 
> There is nothing that says kAma and krodha will never arise after the rise 
> of samyag-jnAna. 
> 
> bhaskar :
> 
> Interesting & very strange prabhuji...can a jnAni get kAma & krOdha being 


Bhaskar, it is very matter of fact and there is nothing at all remotely interesting
or strange about it.

 

> influenced by the external stimulus?? Without entertaining duality & 
> satyatva buddhi in it, how can a samyag jnAni get the bhAva of kAma & 
> krOdha?? please explain. And if you dont mind, kindly provide me the 


Unfortunately, I am not speaking from the perspective of a jnAnI who
functions in the world, so all I am doing is rewording what acknowledged
jnAnI-s have themselves said about it. Of course, for someone who thinks
there have been no jnAnI-s at all for a thousand years after Sankara, or
for someone who thinks that anyone who talks of saMskAra-s and vAsana-s
and avidyA-leSa cannot be a true samyag-jnAnI, what I am saying will
indeed sound very strange!

 

If a jnAnI can express various bhAva-s like joy in the progress of a Sishya,
sadness over the pain and suffering of others, are these possible without
"entertaining duality" as you put it? Does it follow that a jnAnI ascribes
satyatva buddhi to it? Why not extend this to kAma and krodha also?


 

> bhAshya or shAstra reference to the above conclusion of yours. on the 


I do mind, because numerous references have been given over the course of
so many threads here, apparently to no avail.


Still, I will point to one reference here - "harati viveka-prajnAM" in the gItA
bhAshya on the sthitaprajna verses. You will come back with a "but prabhuji,
that is meant for xyz", to which my response will be that you are fundamentally
misunderstanding Sankara's position in this respect. 

 

> other hand, geetAchArya says kAma krOdha viyuktAnAm yateenAm yatachetasaM, 
> abhitO brahmanirvANaM vartate vididAtmanAM...tatra kO mOhaH kaH shOkaH 
> ekatvaM anupashyataH asks shruti!!


Indeed. Please cogitate on the bhAshya on these references, not in isolation,
but in the context of the discussion that leads to these vAkya-s.

 

> 
> Sri Vidya prabhuji :
> 
> On the other hand, once samyag-jnAna arises, the person in whose 
> antaHkaraNa
> these may arise, will naturally think, "these are by-products of the 
> guNa-s
> and they lie in the guNa-s." He or she will not identify with them, unlike
> the ajnAnI who gets lost in the kAma and krodha. 
> 
> bhaskar :
> 
> prabhuji dont you think this natural thinking process would happen 
> 'before' getting kAma & krOdha in 'his' prakruti / antaHkaraNa?? how can 
> a samyag jnAni who would see 'All in one' and ONE in all would 'first' get 
> kAma & krOdha like any other ordinary mortal coil and 'then' think "Oh!! 
> no, it is mere play of my prakruti, I should not get disturbed from it and 
> I have to be witness to it, so sit and watch !"...Kindly clarify, whether 
> jnAni's natural thinking process starts before getting kAma krOdha in his 
> antaHkaraNa or after getting rAga dvesha in antaHkaraNa.


This is where we have to get back to basics. Your definition of samyag-jnAna
is unreasonable and it certainly is not what Sankara bhagavatpAda describes
as samyag-jnAna at various places in his bhAshya-s. Please think about and
respond to the eight or nine questions I raised in a post a day or two ago,
about the rise/uncovering of jnAna, how it happens, when it happens, etc.
Please think about how Sankara bhagavatpAda can acknowledge weakness
in jnAna-pravRtti after the rise of samyag-jnAna and consider whether this
will fit in with what you think samyag-jnAna is. You cannot choose to keep
aside a discussion of jnAna-nishThA and how it relates to samyag-jnAna here.
The two are intimately tied in with each other.

 

> 
> Sri Vidya prabhuji :
> 
> And kAma in this case is not limited to sexual desire; it can be as simple 
> as desire for the taste
> of coffee in the morning or for a comfortable bed at night. It can even be 
> for something as simple as clean water to bathe in, and anger or 
> resentment at a situation may arise if the clean water is not easily or 
> immediately available.
> 
> bhaskar :
> 
> Kindly pardon me for stretching this example....Can we extend these 
> practical examples to jnAni's sexual inclinations also...I dont know why 
> we should not!!?? we can always argue that due to his prArabdha karma or 
> saMskAra or previous vAsana or avidyA lesha or current set of antaHkaraNa 
> what he has in his body, he may get the agitation for not fulfulling his 
> sexual desire 'in time' !! If the trifle things like 'bed coffee' 'good 
> bed' and hot & clean water themselves can disturb his tranquility how can 
> he maintain his serenity in more disturbing, powerful & demanding 
> situations prabhuji?? I am not able to understand.


There is a vast difference between acknowledging on the one hand that
sexual desire and inclinations may come and go and on the other hand,
failing to maintain serenity in their face. You and I are both agreed that
the one who cannot resist is not a jnAnI at all. However, you seem to 
insist that a sexual thought won't even arise in a jnAnI, whereas I say
that it can arise and a jnAnI knows how to deal with it correctly. It is
not for nothing that we are told countless mythological stories about it.
vasishTha did not procreate without sexual activity. vyAsa did not father
Suka without sexual activity. 

 

It is the failure to acknowledge that desires, including sexual ones, can
arise and the failure to treat of it practically that leads to the kinds of
scandals and problems that we see routinely today. AtmajnAna does not
kill the body, nor the need for food, water and air to sustain the body.
The body houses the mind, which has anAdi inclinations towards external
objects. On the other hand, AtmajnAna is not a new thing that comes into
being; it is  something that is always there, through the anAdi inclinations
of the mind and through the innumerable bodies that are born and die.
Isn't it unreasonable then, to insist that any person in whom some mental
emotion arises is not a jnAnI at all? Isn't it even more unreasonable to
insist that a jnAnI has no mind at all (as you have done recently)? It
seems to me that you need to really come to terms with the fact that
a functioning mind is not incompatible with being a jnAnI, before we can
talk about other things. And as long as a mind functions, it functions as
per its accumulated tendencies. We are back to saMskAra-s and vAsana-s
now.


The fundamental problem is this. Atma-jnAna is self-certifying. You cannot
come in and judge whether I am a jnAnI or not. Nor can I judge this about

you. The same situation holds for ajnAna also. It belongs to him who says
he is an ajnAnI, when the reality is that even the worst ajnAnI is always
only brahman. So, only a jnAnI can declare that he is a jnAnI and only an
ajnAnI can superimpose ajnAna upon his own self. This is what adhyAsa and
its apavAda is all about.


Be that as it may, what happens when other people go to a jnAnI for advice
and become followers? I would much rather have the jnAnI who acknowledges
that an emotion called anger or sexual desire arose in his mind and who then
examined that anger or sexual desire in a dispassionate manner. I can learn
something about how to constructively deal with kAma and krodha from such
a jnAnI. I will, however, run away as fast as I can from someone who says
that as a jnAnI, he magically has no mind at any time, that it is I who am
superimposing a mind onto him, that it is I who am projecting my own anger
and desires onto this superimposed mind and that it is I who don't see how
he is always tranquil, no matter what the external situation is. God save us
all from such jnAnI-s!


> bhaskar :
> 
> Yes prabhuji, in someone's perception jnAni has avidyA lesha, due to 
> prArabdha karma janita antaHkaraNa he would get kAma krOdhAdi wicked 
> thoughts etc. and he would controls it automatically etc. and duration 
> between krodha/kAma & its control may differ individual to individual as 
> per paripakvate of his antaHkaraNa...Whereas in some others' perception 
> jnAni is always ashareeri, guNAteeta, dvamdvAteeta, he maintains his 
> tranquility & unmoved even in most disturbing situations coz. he is samyag 
> darshi or samadarshi. 


Bhaskar, it is Sankara bhagavatpAda himself who talks of prArabdha karma 
and of its effects post-jnAna. I have tried to be patient and have explained
various issues relating to this as best as I can see them, in what seems to
be a futile exercise. I am now going to be blunt - please get off this high
horse you are on and get down to earth. 

 

> 
> Finally prabhuji, kindly dont think I am arguing with your goodself..If my 
> paramaguruji Sri SSS himself had explained jnAni's lakshaNa like this, I 
> would have posed my questions in the same manner!! Because it is the only 
> way I know to get the clarification...Hope you wont take it as 
> offensive...


To begin with, I don't mind argument. At some times, I quite relish it. However,
if all you were doing were to pose questions for clarification, you would not be
making assertions. So, while clarifying for the umpteenth time that I am not 
offended, do pardon me for thinking that there is a lot more to your questions
than mere desire for clarification.


Best regards,

Vidyasankar

                
 		 	   		  
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