[Advaita-l] Fwd: A perspective -20

[Sunil Bhattacharjya]

Digressing a bit. Was Ahalya cursed or did her spiritual power convert her to a stone in order to save her from disgrace? I read this interpretation somewhere but now I cannot recall the reference.

--- On Tue, 3/2/10, V Subrahmanian <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com> wrote:

From: V Subrahmanian <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Fwd: A perspective -20
To: "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta" <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
Date: Tuesday, March 2, 2010, 1:18 AM

Dear Anbu ji,

This 'shaapa vimochanam' by Bhagavan abounds in the Puranic and Itahasa
lore.  Take for instance young Krishna passing thru the two trees with the
grinding stone tied to His waist.  The two brothers Manigreeva and
NalakUbara emerged from the felled trees.  They were the sons of Kubera and
had got this tree form due to a curse.  They were not Jnanis before and
after. There is another instance of a lizard turning out to be a gandharva,
being freed from the shaapa.  Even this gandharva was not a Jnani.

In Advaita,  Jnanam is complete disidentification from the AnAtma.  If a
Jnani is cursed by some Deva/Rishi and starts identifiying with a stone,
then the very definition of Jnanam is questionable. Even granting that
Ahalya was a Jnani and experienced the effects of the curse, the story does
not obviate the need for the instrumentality of the mind, even in the case
of  a Jnani.  For, only with a mind can one identify and disidentify.
JaaDyam is also a mode of the (taamasic) mind alone. Atman is beyond the
guNa-s. My persistence is on this one aspect.

By the way, here is the story, 'as told by Bhagavan' from literature related
to Bhagavan Ramana where this Ahalya episode is discussed:

http://www.messagefrommasters.com/ramana_stories/ramana_maharshi_gautama_ahalya_32.htm

// Devotee: “The statement that Ahalya turned into a stone
applies only to her mind and not to her body. Is that not so?”

Bhagavan: “That is so. If it is not for the mind, could it be for the body?
It is only ordinary people that say her body turned into a stone and that
Rama restored her to her original form by putting his foot on the stone. How
is that possible? It only means that the mind lost its awareness of the
Self, and unable to think of anything else, she became dull like a stone.

That dullness got relieved by the darsan of a great personage.
As she herself was a great tapasvini she could immediately become aware of
the Self. //


Warm regards,
subrahmanian.v

On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 8:24 PM, Anbu sivam2 <anbesivam2 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear Sri Subramanian,
>
> I suppose I have said all that could be said of my conviction.  There is no
> such thing as a rule book for advaitha.  At the end of the day one has to
> understand it intuitively.  It would be the same if you imagine yourself to
> be Ahalya and Sri Rama placed his holy paadham on your head.  I suppose a
> bhakthimaan has a different concept than an exegete.
>
> Actually according to Bhagavan Ramana Ahalya was a gnyaani even when she
> was
> cursed.  This might surprise you and might tempt you to ask more questions.
> We are merely treading into how jeevan mukthas behave in this world.  Our
> AachaaryaaL referred to one such person in Sivaanandalahari namely Kannappa
> Nayanaar who also placed his holy foot on Lord Siva.  If you are interested
> you can read my 3 part commentary on that in the 63rd Sloka of
> Sivaanandhalahari.
>
> Subhamasthu,
> Anbu
>
> On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 6:54 AM, V Subrahmanian <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com
> >wrote:
>
> > Dear Anbu ji,
> >
> > Pl. see my responses in [ ]
> >
> > On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 3:47 PM, Anbu sivam2 <anbesivam2 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > Dear Sri Subramanian,
> > >
> > > In the first post under this thread I wrote: " Advaitha teaches us that
> > > giving up the intellect enables one to become one with this Reality."
> > >
> >
> > [ This is not the teaching of traditional Advaita of Shankara's.]
> >
> > >
> > >  *A gnyani is one with the reality and as such he is asangan.*
> >
> >
> > [This is true]
> >
> > >
> > > That would be the acquiring of aathmagnyaanam which can be obtained
> only
> > by
> > > the surrender to the Guru.  Such ability to surrender to a Guru comes
> out
> > > of
> > > sukrutham in many many births.
> > >
> >
> > [There are no issues on this.]
> >
> > >
> > > Then what happens between him and the Guru is one-on-one and does not
> > > involve any set pattern and the upadesa may involve words or not even
> > > words.  Bhagavan Ramana gave nayana dheeksha to many people.
> >
> >
> > [If Bhagavan Krishna, Himself PUrNa, could have approved such methods of
> > 'nayana deeksha' why did He not do that for Arjuna?  Why did He ask him
> to
> > acquire Jnanam by 'tad viddhi praNipaatena pariprashnena sevayaa?' ]
> >
> >
> > >  My examples from Ramayana and Bhagavatha are in these lines.
> > >
> >
> > [I do not think Ahalya became a Jnani after the shaapa vimochanam.]
> >
> > >
> > > Who can assert that the intellect was involved in all these?
> > >
> >
> > [Since Ahalya's case is out of this, it could well be said in the case of
> > Gopis that the intellect had become pari pakvam to intuit only the
> > antaraatma dRk, sAkshi, to the exclusion of every thing else.  This is
> what
> > Krishna advises in the 6th chapter: na kinchidapi chintayet.  The Gopi-s
> > could be said to have had this ability.  Constant, one pointed, Krishna
> > chintanam can take place only in the intellect.  So, where is the
> > destruction or giving up of the intellect?  In the Panchadashi Vidyaranya
> > gives the example of a woman constantly thinking of her paramour even
> when
> > engaged in her daily routine.]
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > What I am saying is that it is preposterous to say that a gnyaani needs
> > the
> > > mind to carry on in this world.  He is there exhausting his praarabhdha
> > > karma but he is asangan.  What he seems to be doing is a destiny that
> he
> > > knows unlike the agnyaani but may not care for he is asangan.
> > >
> >
> > [Sir, pl. note that for carrying on in this world the Jnani definitely
> > needs
> > the mind.  Supposing he is writing a book.  Will he not consult several
> > other books and select and reject material?  How is this possible without
> a
> > mind?  How will he distinguish between what is required for him from what
> > is
> > not?  If he has to show compassion, care, etc. to others, how will this
> be
> > possible without the mind?  Bhagavan has taught in the Gita that these
> are
> > all faculties of the mind. If he  is an Acharya, a shortriya
> brahmanishtha,
> > how can he teach various students of various levels unless he
> > distinguishes,
> > discriminates, etc.  It is a wrong notion that the jnani would have no
> > mind.
> >
> > According to the Vedanta, prarabdha karma is the one where the present
> > body-mind complex that has begun will run its destined course and only
> then
> > cease.  How can we admit that only the physical body of the Jnani without
> > the mind will continue? ]
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Why so?  Because the world is a product of karma and Easwara as
> > Karmaphala
> > > Dhaatha has to ensure that the phala that he has dispensed is not
> > overcome
> > > by any means.  He ensures this by being the space, time and causality
> and
> > > the jeeva too!
> > >
> >
> > [ When He is the jeeva, will He be just the jiva's body and not the
>  mind,
> > intellect, ahankara also?  If he is not always in samadhi, he will have
> to
> > interact with the world.  If someone calls him by name, how will he
> respond
> > if he has no mind, ahankara? The notion of 'mind is lost with
> > self-realization' is a concept that is not acceptable to Vedanta.]
> >
> >
> > > Now tell me how can anyone with only a useless weapon as an
> > > intellect can challenge his will?
> >
> >
> > [The intellect is required to go along with the prarabdha even if not for
> > challenging Iswara's will.  Let me also tell you that there are some
> videos
> > available on the Paramacharya of Kanchi.  One can see, over the years,
> the
> > Acharya had to be prompted by those around Him for suitable words, names,
> > dates, etc.  This was not required when He was young in His thirties and
> > forties. I have seen those videos too.  That shows that the intellect
> takes
> > the beating of ageing. This is the natural course of Prakriti to which
> even
> > a jnani is subject. Of course it is needless to say that his AtmajnAnam
> > will
> > not be affected by these.  The Panchadashi Chapter 2 last few shlokas are
> > specifically on this. ]
> >
> > Best regards,
> > subbu
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Archives: http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/
> http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.culture.religion.advaita
>
> To unsubscribe or change your options:
> http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/advaita-l
>
> For assistance, contact:
> listmaster at advaita-vedanta.org
>
_______________________________________________
Archives: http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/
http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.culture.religion.advaita

To unsubscribe or change your options:
http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/advaita-l

For assistance, contact:
listmaster at advaita-vedanta.org