[Advaita-l] FW: Avidya, Jnanis and SSS' views

[Bhaskar YR]

sAshtAnga praNAms Sri Vidya prabhuji
Hare Krishna

Sri Vidya prabhuji :

But what you stated was that the "other brahma-vits" were saguNa brahma-
vidaH only, on the path of krama mukti, not nirguNa brahma-vidaH. This is
what I describe as an over-interpretation of the bhAshya according to 
one's
own predilections. 

bhaskar :

but as I said earlier, for my predilectins I believe, I've the valid 
inference.  Since saguNa brahma jnAna is purusha tantra attained through 
upAsana, dhyAna etc. there is every chance of gradations in this jnAna 
according to adhikAra bedha.  Whereas absolute brahma jnAna is kevala 
vastu tantra it is neither chOdanA tantra nor purusha tantra there cannot 
be any 'difference in this jnAna and there cannot be gradations in the 
custodians of this SAME paramArtha jnAna. 

 
Sri Vidya prabhuji :

The real issue is this. Even the greatest ajnAnI always begins every 
single 
cognition with first cognizing his or her own AtmA and this AtmA is 
brahman. This is well-known to you from brahmasUtra bhAshya. 

bhaskar :

Kindly bear with my ignorance...I am not able to get the intention of the 
above vAkya from your goodself!!?? 

Sri Vidya prabhuji :

Thus, even for the person at the very bottom of the avidyA barrel, so to 
speak, in reality,
brahman is always aparoksha! 

bhaskar :

Again, I am at loss to understand your above sentences...kindly elaborate 
for the better clarity to this dull mind:-((

Sri Vidya prabhuji :

Along comes Sruti, imparted by the AcArya, and gives you this pramANa
based jnAna. You keep referring to "mere intellectual understanding",
implicitly distinguishing it from aparoksha-anubhava. Is this intellectual
understanding generated by the pramANa of SAstra or is it generated
independently? It is clearly the former, right? What prevents everyone
who has SravaNa from going past the stage of intellectual understanding
instantly? 

bhaskar :

prabhuji it is due to adhikAra bedha in brahma jignAsu-s...shvetaketu 
needs nine times upadesha from uddaalaka and ramaNa got it like a flash in 
a pan, arjuna required more than 600 bhagavAna vAni in geetOpadesha. 

Sri Vidya prabhuji :

You never make it clear what you think (or have been taught) to be the 
process (or the quantum leap if you will) from intellectual understanding 
to the anubhava.

bhaskar :

Again, I am not suggesting anything new apart from already accepted direct 
sAdhana-s i.e. shravaNa, manana & nidhidhyAsana to gain this 
pUrNAnubhava..I am neither suggesting any peculiar state like nirvikalpa 
samAdhi nor lokAntara, kAlAntara dehAntara mOksha...

Sri Vidya prabhuji :

As long as there is SAstra-janita brahmajnAna, there is a pramAtA with a
mind and an intellect in which this pramANa based knowledge has arisen.
Is the SAstra-janita pramA-jnAna paroksha or aparoksha? If the former,
at least initially, how does it get converted to the latter?

bhaskar :

Here jnAnOtpatti is nothing but ajnAna nivrutti only prabhuji...till we 
get that ajnAna nivrutti we have to follow the shAstra & AchAryOpadesha 
prabhuji...As you know, to get parOksha jnAna also shAstra is the 
pramANa...and certain sAdhana mArga prescribed for this.  So, the 
conversion here is realizing what is already there. 

Sri Vidya prabhuji :


It seems to me that you assume that once the aparoksha-anubhava arises,
it magically erases the mind in one shot and that there is no residual 
mind
to raise doubts or cause unsteadiness of AtmadarSana. I see no explicit
statement or even remote implication to that effect in the bhAshya-s.

bhaskar :

No prabhuji I am not telling there was a mind as anAtma vastu and after 
jnAna this anAtma vastu vanishes in thin air..OTOH, I am saying when the 
mind turns towards the self and mind loses its mindness (manstva) and 
appears as the self..in other words mind has become (figuratively) one 
with the Atman when one has realized the true nature of his self.  Because 
for him there is nothing APART from HIM/Atman...he is called samyak 
darshi...it is advayAtma darshana.  This is what has been explained in 
asparsha yOga, manOnAsha & manOlaya yOga in kArika-s prabhuji. 

Sri Vidya prabhuji :

In the case of the bRhadAraNyaka bhAshya 1.4.7, where the
steady recollection of Atma-vijnAna is accepted (abhyupagata) as leading
to citta vRtti nirodha, pray where is the succeeding argument where this
position is then given up?

bhaskar :

I think we have already extensively discussed this yOga sUtra : chitta 
vrutti nirOdha when we are discussing the role of yOga shAstra in 
shankara's advaita vedAnta. In short with regard to bhAshya vAkya in 1.4.7 
of bruhad bhAshya Sankara hereitself refutes the argument of pUrva_pakSha 
that nirOdha is required after vAkya janya jnAna.  Shankara argues here 
that in vedAnta nothing other than brahmAtma vijnAna is determined to be 
the sAdhana for mOksha. Then he goes on to say: ananya sAdhanatvAccha 
nirOdhasya. Na hi Atma vijnAna tatsmRti santAna vyatirekeNa chitta vrutti 
nirOdhasya sAdhanamasti. abhyupagamya idamuktam. Na tu brahma vijnAna 
vyatirekeNa anyanmoksha sAdhanam avagamyate. Here Shankara is saying that: 
other than Atma_vijnAna and its smruti santAna there is no other way for 
chitta_vrutti_nirOdha (therefore with Atma vijnAna, chitta vrutti nirodha 
is automatic). We say this by ‘accepting’ or ‘assuming’ -abhyupagamya 
(that nirodha is moksha_sAdhana). Ultimately shankara categorically 
concludes that there is no mOksha sAdhana other than brahma vijnAna. Prior 
to the above passage, Sankara has already stated that 
Atma vijnAna smRti santati, steady recollection of Atma vijnAna, is 
natural after vAkya janya jnAna and no vidhi is required for that smruti 
santati. In essence, abhyupagama, acceptance or assumption, of nirodha as 
sAdhana for
moksha is only for argument sake and this has been given up by saying that 
there is no moksha sAdhana other than brahma vijnAna.  In this regard we 
can also refer shankara bhAshya portion in 1-4-10 starting from evaM tarhi 
santatOvidyAnivartakO na vicchinnaH iti...na...jeeva nAdaU sati 
santatyanupapatteH.... pratyayeyattAsaMtAnAnavadhAraNAt 
shAstrArthAnavadhAraNadOshAt..I think we have discussed all these things 
in the year 2003-2004...Anyway, I wholeheartedly thank Prof. Ramanatha 
prabhuji who has off the list brought this to my notice onceagain. 

Sri Vidya prabhuji :

Once you see the real purport of this, all other issues fall in place. In 
the coming weeks, I will have very little time to continue on this thread, 
so I will leave it here with just two comments. One, there are many 
pointers to
and answers about jnAna-nishThA and jnAna-pravrtti in the gItAbhAshya, of 
course in the 2nd chapter, in the verses on sthitaprajna-lakshaNa and 
again in the 18th chapter, on verses 48 onwards. 

bhaskar :

Thanks for the reference prabhuji..but clarify which of the pravrutti that 
has been enlisted in these verses  would become durbalaM in the jnAni and 
how it happens without disturbing sthitha prajnatha in him.  Again, here 
in this bhAshya shankara does not even remotely suggest that sthitha 
prajna state is reversable & he would over a period of time get weakness 
in his pravrutti.  Kindly note prabhuji, I am asking this question since 
it is still not clear to me jnAna pravrutti daurbalya without jnAna 
daurbalyam.

Sri Vidya prabhuji :

Two, if you cannot see how one can infer -vara and -varIyas as gradations 
that lead to -varishTha,
I say that this follows from grammar and language usage in a 
straightforward manner. 

bhaskar :

If one say he is best among Engineering students it does not mean it meant 
ONLY ONE particular branch of the Engineering he is the BEST...He might be 
/ can be the BEST student among various branches of Engineering..Like 
that, here also we can say that among various brahma vits he is varishTa 
since he is Atma kreeda and has the absolute knowledge of 
ekamevAdviteeya...Is there any problem in thinking like this prabhuji?? 
Since brahma jnAna is eka rasa, it does not have any parts to say vara is 
the owner of two parts & varIya-s have the ownership of more than vara and 
varishTa is the owner of ALL parts of it!!  IMHO, it does goes against 
siddhAnta prabhuji..  Kindly dont think I am arguing with you 
prabhuji..These are all my genuine doubts after reading the gradations in 
absolute jnAna nishTa-s.

Sri Vidya prabhuji :

It is accepted by all that these words are used only from an external
standpoint. In any case, how is the aparoksha brahma-jnAnI supposed to
spend his last breathing moment in this embodied form in any other way
than in what is called nirvikalpa samAdhi? The physically embodied senses
and the mind do not go seeking sense-object-enjoyment - that is the 
natural
state of the highest jnAnI, is it not? But is there any rule that says 
that the
last breathing moment of such a body should NOT be in such samAdhi, or any
rule that limits the time that a physical body can last in such samAdhi? 
As for
non-availability of such a jnAnI to others, perhaps that may be so, but 
ours
is a tradition that accepts silence (mauna-vyAkhyA) as one of the greatest
possible teachings on brahman. If the prArabdha of a Sishya is such that 
he
or she gets even a small benefit by the mere sight of a 
brahmavid-varishTha,
then surely, there is somehow an availability at least to one other 
person!


bhaskar :

Kindly pardon me prabhuji...I think here you are deliberately avoiding the 
description of these grades & their linking of peculiar state of 
nirvikalpa samAdhi which is quite conspicuous from the work quoted. 
Anyway, I respect your interpretation of nirvikalpa samAdhi & varishTa-s 
physical death prabhuji.  Thanks for your clarification.

alam anena. namo brahmavid-varishThebhyaH,
Vidyasankar

your humble servant
Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
bhaskar