[Advaita-l] Did Madhusudana Saraswati Reconcile Bhakti and Advaita?

[Kalyan K]

Can you please clarify on what you think is the traditional position on the
following -

1.  What is the ultimate goal - bhakti or jNAna?

2. Krishna and his form - are they one or different?

Since you speak of neutrality - I do not know this gentleman Prof. Nelson.
He could be a neutral academic person as you say. But even Swamis of
"non-traditional" mutts like Swami Gambhirananda can be neutral.

Regards
Kalyan


On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 7:05 PM, Rajaram Venkataramani <rajaramvenk at gmail.com
> wrote:

> As you know, Sringeri etc. are regarded as traditional because the line of
> teachers trace back to Sankara, which is not the case with RK Mutt. But I
> dont think a person must belong to a traditional mutt to be respected for
> his good qualities or work. I have a great regard for Swami Gambhirananda
> for his tireless work in translating the works of Sankara and Gudartha
> Dipika. It would not have been possible without the support of RK Math.
>
> The risk with non-traditional mutts is that their teaching does not align
> to the tradition. Having said that, traditional scholars *may, I am not
> saying they do, * argue that Krishna and His form are different or that
> Bhakti is not an ultimate goal, without studying Madhusudana, who closely
> follows Sankara. Now, they pose a greater risk because the blind followers
> will tend to believe that their view as authentic. This is where the
> neutral contribution of academic scholars such as Prof. Lance Nelson is
> important. Through objective study, he has made the views of Madhusudana
> public.
>
> On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 10:02 AM, Kalyan K <kalyankc.81 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Is he a traditional scholar? Depends on what you mean by traditional. The
> > Ramkrishna math, with which he is associated,  is doing more for
> spreading
> > the message of Sankara as compared to "traditional" maths like Sringeri
> > math. If you visit the RK math at Chennai or Hyderabad for example, you
> > will find many books on Sankara's  vedanta. The prices of these books is
> > also low. On the other hand, if you visit the Sringeri Shankar matt in
> > Hyderabad, you will hardly find any books on vedanta. I will probably
> pay a
> > visit to the Sringeri math in Bangalore and see if it fares better.
> >
> > Regards
> > Kalyan
> >
> > On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 2:16 PM, <rajaramvenk at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I have a great regard for him for translating many works of Shankara
> and
> > > also Gudartha Dipika. I don't know if he is a traditional scholar per
> se.
> > > Anyway, he has not translated works such as Bhaktirasayana and Bhakti
> > > Chandrika by the disciple of Madhusudana.
> > >
> > > Can you point me to a traditional scholar who is a scholar in
> > Madhusudana?
> > > Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > >  From: Kalyan K <kalyankc.81 at gmail.com>
> > > Sender: advaita-l-bounces at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
> > > Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 08:37:05
> > > To: <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> > > Reply-To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta
> > >        <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> > > Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Did Madhusudana Saraswati Reconcile Bhakti and
> > >        Advaita?
> > >
> > > >Is there any traditional scholar who has cared to study Madhusudana
> > > Saraswati?
> > >
> > > Swami Gambhirananda of the Ramakrishna math has translated gUDArtha
> > dIpika
> > > of madhusUdhana saraswati on the bhagavad gIta into English.
> > >
> > > Regards
> > > Kalyan
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 12:01 PM, <rajaramvenk at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Dear Sivakumar, I would like to avoid the gross mistake. Is there any
> > > > traditional scholar who has cared to study Madhusudana Saraswati?
> Prof.
> > > > Lance Nelson, Prof. Sanjukta, Prof. Mishra etc. spent a lifetime
> doing
> > > > that. They have sat at the feet of traditional scholars and
> documented
> > > the
> > > > unanswered questions.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: "Sivakumar,Kollam" <sivanr8010 at gmail.com>
> > > > Sender: advaita-l-bounces at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
> > > > Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2012 06:01:39
> > > > To: Sunil Bhattacharjya<sunil_bhattacharjya at yahoo.com>; A discussion
> > > > group for Advaita Vedanta<advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> > > > Reply-To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta
> > > >        <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> > > > Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Did Madhusudana Saraswati Reconcile Bhakti
> and
> > > >        Advaita?
> > > >
> > > > It is a gross mistake to asses the traditional
> > > > works by  norms of western academicians
> > > > and unfortunately this is the task in which most
> > > > of the present day academic scholars indulge in.This is because most
> of
> > > the
> > > > works on Adwaita and bhakthi literature is concerned with the
> > subjective
> > > > aspect ie.self which cannot be assessed from an objective aspect
> which
> > is
> > > > the approach of the academicians.Lack of understanding of this  seems
> > to
> > > be
> > > > the root cause of most of  problem related to study of
> > > > Adwaita and Bhakthi. Most interesting fact is that despite the
> caution
> > > and
> > > > advise of our Acharyas time to time we again and again indulge in
> same
> > > > mistake!
> > > > sivakumarr.
> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 2:22 AM, Sunil Bhattacharjya <
> > > > sunil_bhattacharjya at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Even in the modern times there is exmple of a bhaktivadi going the
> > > > advaita
> > > > > way. Initially Shri Ramakrishna Paramhansa was sceptical about
> > Advaita
> > > > and
> > > > > later on he realised that his Ishta-devata (Mother Kali) herself
> was
> > > > > advising him to get intiated to the Advaita way. May be similar
> thing
> > > > > happened to Madhusoodana Saraswati.
> > > > >
> > > > > Regards,
> > > > >
> > > > > Sunil KB
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ________________________________
> > > > >  From: Rajaram Venkataramani <rajaramvenk at gmail.com>
> > > > > To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta <
> > > > > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> > > > > Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 12:24 PM
> > > > > Subject: [Advaita-l] Did Madhusudana Saraswati Reconcile Bhakti and
> > > > > Advaita?
> > > > >
> > > > > As per my understanding, Bhakti and Advaita are totally compatible
> > even
> > > > up
> > > > > to and at the penultimate stage. This is because bhagavath bhakti,
> > > where
> > > > > bhagavan is identified with the innermost self, is referred to in
> the
> > > > > upanishads and bhakti rasas are known to the author of Harivamsa,
> > which
> > > > is
> > > > > admitted to be quite ancient. Sankara Himself was aware of
> Bhagavatha
> > > > > school and Harivamsa specifically. However, the popular conception
> is
> > > > that
> > > > > bhagavath bhakti is incompatible with Advaita. And due to the
> > > popularity
> > > > of
> > > > > bhakti movement, Madhusudana Saraswati had to reconcile bhakti and
> > > > Advaita.
> > > > > Prof. Lance Nelson, who did his thesis on Bhakti Rasayana feels
> that
> > > > > Madhusudana Saraswati did not successfully reconcile bhakti and
> > > Advaita.
> > > > > The following is from his abstract, which summarizes his case and
> > would
> > > > > like to know what the scholars on this list think.
> > > > >
> > > > > From the abstract of Prof. Lance Nelson's Ph. D. thesis,
> "Madhusudana
> > > > > Saraswati (16th century), one of the greatest and most vigourous
> > > > exponents
> > > > > of post sankara advaita, was simultaniously, and somewhat
> > > paradoxically,
> > > > a
> > > > > great devotee of Krishna. He authored several works in which he
> > sought
> > > to
> > > > > give bhakti a more prominent place within Advaita, a system
> > > traditionally
> > > > > regarded as hostile to devotional spirituality.
> > > > >             The Bhaktirasayana (BR), the most important of these,
> is
> > an
> > > > > independent composition which attemps a theoretical integration of
> > non
> > > -
> > > > > duilist metaphysics and the ecstatic devotionalism of the Bhagavata
> > > > Purana.
> > > > > The work's main thesis, borrowed from the Vaishnava devotionalists,
> > is
> > > > that
> > > > > Bhakti is the highest goal of life (paramapurusartha). To establish
> > > this
> > > > in
> > > > > the face of the orthodox Advaita doctrine that liberation alone is
> > the
> > > > > highest aim, Madusudhana argues
> > > > > (1) that bhakti is God (bhagavat) appearing in the melted mind of
> the
> > > > > devotee, (2) that since bhagavat is supreme bliss, so is bhakti,
> and
> > > (3)
> > > > > that bhakti includes knowledge of the atman and is a more blissful
> > > > > experience than moksha.
> > > > >            While the arguement of the experiential superiority of
> > > bhakti
> > > > in
> > > > > the  state of jivanmukti ("liberation in life") is plausible,
> > Madhusana
> > > > > does not show, in Advaitic terms, how it can be experienced
> eternally
> > > > after
> > > > > death. Moreover, he fails to establish that bhagavat is
> ontologically
> > > > equal
> > > > > to Brahman, which makes it difficult to see how bhakti , as
> > identified
> > > > with
> > > > > bhagavat, can be ontologically superior, or even equal to moksha.
> In
> > > > short,
> > > > > he does not present a convincing arguement for bhakti's being
> > > > > paramapurusartha.
> > > > >           In later works such as the Gudarthadipika and
> > Advaitasiddhi,
> > > > > Madhusana abondens the idea that bhakti is an independent spiritual
> > > path
> > > > > and itself the parama-purusartha. The commonly accepted view that
> he
> > > was
> > > > a
> > > > > champion of the cause of bhakti who successfully intergrated
> devotion
> > > and
> > > > > Advita cannot therefore be accepted without serious qualification".
> > > > > _______________________________________________
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> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > *sivakumarr*
> > > > _______________________________________________
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