[Advaita-l] Did Madhusudana Saraswati Reconcile Bhakti and Advaita?

[Rajaram Venkataramani]

On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 5:08 PM, Sunil Bhattacharjya <
sunil_bhattacharjya at yahoo.com> wrote:

> 1)
> Prajnanam Brahma but did anybody anywhere say Bhaktim Brahma?
>

Please read Madhusudana. He explains why.

2)
Lord Krishna and his forms are different for those who do not know that the
forms are His.

Will any one in his right mind think that Krishna's form is not Krishna's?


Regards,

Sunil KB




________________________________
 From: Kalyan K <kalyankc.81 at gmail.com>

> To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> Sent: Friday, February 3, 2012 7:33 AM
>  Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Did Madhusudana Saraswati Reconcile Bhakti and
> Advaita?
>
> Can you please clarify on what you think is the traditional position on the
> following -
>
> 1.  What is the ultimate goal - bhakti or jNAna?
>
> 2. Krishna and his form - are they one or different?
>
> Since you speak of neutrality - I do not know this gentleman Prof. Nelson.
> He could be a neutral academic person as you say. But even Swamis of
> "non-traditional" mutts like Swami Gambhirananda can be neutral.
>
> Regards
> Kalyan
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 7:05 PM, Rajaram Venkataramani <
> rajaramvenk at gmail.com
> > wrote:
>
> > As you know, Sringeri etc. are regarded as traditional because the line
> of
> > teachers trace back to Sankara, which is not the case with RK Mutt. But I
> > dont think a person must belong to a traditional mutt to be respected for
> > his good qualities or work. I have a great regard for Swami Gambhirananda
> > for his tireless work in translating the works of Sankara and Gudartha
> > Dipika. It would not have been possible without the support of RK Math.
> >
> > The risk with non-traditional mutts is that their teaching does not align
> > to the tradition. Having said that, traditional scholars *may, I am not
> > saying they do, * argue that Krishna and His form are different or that
> > Bhakti is not an ultimate goal, without studying Madhusudana, who closely
> > follows Sankara. Now, they pose a greater risk because the blind
> followers
> > will tend to believe that their view as authentic. This is where the
> > neutral contribution of academic scholars such as Prof. Lance Nelson is
> > important. Through objective study, he has made the views of Madhusudana
> > public.
> >
> > On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 10:02 AM, Kalyan K <kalyankc.81 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Is he a traditional scholar? Depends on what you mean by traditional.
> The
> > > Ramkrishna math, with which he is associated,  is doing more for
> > spreading
> > > the message of Sankara as compared to "traditional" maths like Sringeri
> > > math. If you visit the RK math at Chennai or Hyderabad for example, you
> > > will find many books on Sankara's  vedanta. The prices of these books
> is
> > > also low. On the other hand, if you visit the Sringeri Shankar matt in
> > > Hyderabad, you will hardly find any books on vedanta. I will probably
> > pay a
> > > visit to the Sringeri math in Bangalore and see if it fares better.
> > >
> > > Regards
> > > Kalyan
> > >
> > > On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 2:16 PM, <rajaramvenk at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > I have a great regard for him for translating many works of Shankara
> > and
> > > > also Gudartha Dipika. I don't know if he is a traditional scholar per
> > se.
> > > > Anyway, he has not translated works such as Bhaktirasayana and Bhakti
> > > > Chandrika by the disciple of Madhusudana.
> > > >
> > > > Can you point me to a traditional scholar who is a scholar in
> > > Madhusudana?
> > > > Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > >  From: Kalyan K <kalyankc.81 at gmail.com>
> > > > Sender: advaita-l-bounces at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
> > > > Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 08:37:05
> > > > To: <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> > > > Reply-To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta
> > > >        <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> > > > Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Did Madhusudana Saraswati Reconcile Bhakti
> and
> > > >        Advaita?
> > > >
> > > > >Is there any traditional scholar who has cared to study Madhusudana
> > > > Saraswati?
> > > >
> > > > Swami Gambhirananda of the Ramakrishna math has translated gUDArtha
> > > dIpika
> > > > of madhusUdhana saraswati on the bhagavad gIta into English.
> > > >
> > > > Regards
> > > > Kalyan
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 12:01 PM, <rajaramvenk at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Dear Sivakumar, I would like to avoid the gross mistake. Is there
> any
> > > > > traditional scholar who has cared to study Madhusudana Saraswati?
> > Prof.
> > > > > Lance Nelson, Prof. Sanjukta, Prof. Mishra etc. spent a lifetime
> > doing
> > > > > that. They have sat at the feet of traditional scholars and
> > documented
> > > > the
> > > > > unanswered questions.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: "Sivakumar,Kollam" <sivanr8010 at gmail.com>
> > > > > Sender: advaita-l-bounces at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
> > > > > Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2012 06:01:39
> > > > > To: Sunil Bhattacharjya<sunil_bhattacharjya at yahoo.com>; A
> discussion
> > > > > group for Advaita Vedanta<advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> > > > > Reply-To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta
> > > > >        <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Did Madhusudana Saraswati Reconcile Bhakti
> > and
> > > > >        Advaita?
> > > > >
> > > > > It is a gross mistake to asses the traditional
> > > > > works by  norms of western academicians
> > > > > and unfortunately this is the task in which most
> > > > > of the present day academic scholars indulge in.This is because
> most
> > of
> > > > the
> > > > > works on Adwaita and bhakthi literature is concerned with the
> > > subjective
> > > > > aspect ie.self which cannot be assessed from an objective aspect
> > which
> > > is
> > > > > the approach of the academicians.Lack of understanding of this
> seems
> > > to
> > > > be
> > > > > the root cause of most of  problem related to study of
> > > > > Adwaita and Bhakthi. Most interesting fact is that despite the
> > caution
> > > > and
> > > > > advise of our Acharyas time to time we again and again indulge in
> > same
> > > > > mistake!
> > > > > sivakumarr.
> > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 2:22 AM, Sunil Bhattacharjya <
> > > > > sunil_bhattacharjya at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Even in the modern times there is exmple of a bhaktivadi going
> the
> > > > > advaita
> > > > > > way. Initially Shri Ramakrishna Paramhansa was sceptical about
> > > Advaita
> > > > > and
> > > > > > later on he realised that his Ishta-devata (Mother Kali) herself
> > was
> > > > > > advising him to get intiated to the Advaita way. May be similar
> > thing
> > > > > > happened to Madhusoodana Saraswati.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sunil KB
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > >  From: Rajaram Venkataramani <rajaramvenk at gmail.com>
> > > > > > To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta <
> > > > > > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> > > > > > Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 12:24 PM
> > > > > > Subject: [Advaita-l] Did Madhusudana Saraswati Reconcile Bhakti
> and
> > > > > > Advaita?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As per my understanding, Bhakti and Advaita are totally
> compatible
> > > even
> > > > > up
> > > > > > to and at the penultimate stage. This is because bhagavath
> bhakti,
> > > > where
> > > > > > bhagavan is identified with the innermost self, is referred to in
> > the
> > > > > > upanishads and bhakti rasas are known to the author of Harivamsa,
> > > which
> > > > > is
> > > > > > admitted to be quite ancient. Sankara Himself was aware of
> > Bhagavatha
> > > > > > school and Harivamsa specifically. However, the popular
> conception
> > is
> > > > > that
> > > > > > bhagavath bhakti is incompatible with Advaita. And due to the
> > > > popularity
> > > > > of
> > > > > > bhakti movement, Madhusudana Saraswati had to reconcile bhakti
> and
> > > > > Advaita.
> > > > > > Prof. Lance Nelson, who did his thesis on Bhakti Rasayana feels
> > that
> > > > > > Madhusudana Saraswati did not successfully reconcile bhakti and
> > > > Advaita.
> > > > > > The following is from his abstract, which summarizes his case and
> > > would
> > > > > > like to know what the scholars on this list think.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > From the abstract of Prof. Lance Nelson's Ph. D. thesis,
> > "Madhusudana
> > > > > > Saraswati (16th century), one of the greatest and most vigourous
> > > > > exponents
> > > > > > of post sankara advaita, was simultaniously, and somewhat
> > > > paradoxically,
> > > > > a
> > > > > > great devotee of Krishna. He authored several works in which he
> > > sought
> > > > to
> > > > > > give bhakti a more prominent place within Advaita, a system
> > > > traditionally
> > > > > > regarded as hostile to devotional spirituality.
> > > > > >             The Bhaktirasayana (BR), the most important of these,
> > is
> > > an
> > > > > > independent composition which attemps a theoretical integration
> of
> > > non
> > > > -
> > > > > > duilist metaphysics and the ecstatic devotionalism of the
> Bhagavata
> > > > > Purana.
> > > > > > The work's main thesis, borrowed from the Vaishnava
> devotionalists,
> > > is
> > > > > that
> > > > > > Bhakti is the highest goal of life (paramapurusartha). To
> establish
> > > > this
> > > > > in
> > > > > > the face of the orthodox Advaita doctrine that liberation alone
> is
> > > the
> > > > > > highest aim, Madusudhana argues
> > > > > > (1) that bhakti is God (bhagavat) appearing in the melted mind of
> > the
> > > > > > devotee, (2) that since bhagavat is supreme bliss, so is bhakti,
> > and
> > > > (3)
> > > > > > that bhakti includes knowledge of the atman and is a more
> blissful
> > > > > > experience than moksha.
> > > > > >            While the arguement of the experiential superiority of
> > > > bhakti
> > > > > in
> > > > > > the  state of jivanmukti ("liberation in life") is plausible,
> > > Madhusana
> > > > > > does not show, in Advaitic terms, how it can be experienced
> > eternally
> > > > > after
> > > > > > death. Moreover, he fails to establish that bhagavat is
> > ontologically
> > > > > equal
> > > > > > to Brahman, which makes it difficult to see how bhakti , as
> > > identified
> > > > > with
> > > > > > bhagavat, can be ontologically superior, or even equal to moksha.
> > In
> > > > > short,
> > > > > > he does not present a convincing arguement for bhakti's being
> > > > > > paramapurusartha.
> > > > > >           In later works such as the Gudarthadipika and
> > > Advaitasiddhi,
> > > > > > Madhusana abondens the idea that bhakti is an independent
> spiritual
> > > > path
> > > > > > and itself the parama-purusartha. The commonly accepted view that
> > he
> > > > was
> > > > > a
> > > > > > champion of the cause of bhakti who successfully intergrated
> > devotion
> > > > and
> > > > > > Advita cannot therefore be accepted without serious
> qualification".
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
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> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > *sivakumarr*
> > > > > _______________________________________________
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