[Advaita-l] Apoureshyatva - Faith or Logic?

Shyam shyam_md at yahoo.com
Sun Jun 24 11:01:33 CDT 2012

Pranams Shri Subbuji and others following this thread.
A brief response.
Following this line of thinking we have to conclude that our SaptaRishis were barely done brushing their gorilla ape hair off their bodies when they received their revelations and we, with brains far more evolved than theirs have to take such revelations as pramana? And extending this further, in a hundred thousand years, with monstrous foreheads to accomondate their now enlarged prefrontal lobes, will our descendants now receive far better revelations of unauthored nature to guide Dharma?
I really think it is unwarranted to try and accomodate Vedic truths into the framework of evolutionary theory - not because of the reason that such an accomodation is impossible, which it is, but because such a evolutionary theory is mere flight of fancy and not anything that is established on factual basis.
If you hear a melodious song, and asked me who is the composer, and I told you that different random sounds, gradually  evolved from rudimentary notes, into more complex arrangements, and finally over many many centuries, manifested forth as this composition that you now hear, you would very likely advice me urgent psychiatric help. And yet there are many thinking individuals who, in the name of scientific thinking, freely consume of the abiogenesis/evolution Koolaid. 
What is readily evident is that human clairvoyance has only deteriorated, severely at that, from the time of Vyasa, and in more recent history, Gaudapada and Sankara to our own modern times, and that Dharma as the Veda/Itihasas themselves express and predict, only deteriorates with the passage of time yugA upon yugA. 
May I humbly suggest that we are better off understanding scripture with a standpoint of faith, and approaching Science with a healthy scientific spirit of skepticism and rigor, instead of using logic to accomodate an understanding of Scripture that is line with the current status of Science's ignorance. By its very definition Veda pertains only to that which is outside the purview of pratyaksha and Science by its very defintion deals with that which is only in the realm of pratyaksha.
Hari OM

From: V Subrahmanian <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com>
To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> 
Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2012 3:51 AM
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Apoureshyatva - Faith or Logic?

On this topic I have some questions that could get resolved by inputs from
learned members:

  1. If we have a situation where the Veda has to wait to get revealed
  till a proper Rishi evolves, then there is this question:  Are there no
  human beings before such a special human being evolves to be called a Rishi
  to receive the Veda?
  2. In the Vedic or rather traditional thinking an evolution of a person
  is owing to his having practiced the veda vihita anushthanas and thus
  having qualified to the exalted status either in this or earlier birth or
  even in a future birth.
  3. If the vedas can get revealed to a Rishi, an evolved person, and only
  then get propagated and available for other humans, what is the fate of the
  humans who evolved and remained before the Rishi-human evolved and received
  the Veda?
  4. There is a verse: tenaivoktam nigamavachasA.....kArayAmaasa...which
  means: the Lord, what He Himself has said through the Vedas, got them
  spoken through the smRtis composed by others...Rshis, etc. for the benefit
  of humans.
  5. The BG verse 'saha yajnAH prajAH sRShTvA purovAchaH prajApatiH. anena
  prasaviShyadhvam eSha vo'stviShTakAmadhuk - says 'the PrajApati created the
  beings (especially the humans for whom the veda is addressed) along with
  the Vedas (containing the yajnas, etc.) and made them available for the
  humans to use the Veda for fulfilling their purusharthas.'
  6. If the veda has to wait till a rishi is evolved, the humans, the less
  efficient ones than the rishi, who evolved logically before the more
  efficient one evolved (progressive), will be deprived of the means to
  purushartha.  This is unfair.
  7. The former Sringeri Acharya, Jagadguru Sri Abhinava Vidyatirtha
  SwaminaH in His replies to the (modern-educated scientist) disciple who
  asked Him about the admissibility of the modern theory of evolution into
  the Vedic thinking exactly cited the above BG verse and had said that along
  with creation of humans the vedas were made available, along with many
  other points in support of His explanation. (see the Book: Exalting
  Elucidations (formerly known as 'The Jagadguru Replies' published by Sri
  Vidyatirtha Foundation, Chennai)
  8. In fact the BGB introduction also talks of the creation of MarIchi,
  etc. and the sanaka, etc. for the practice of pravRtti and nivRtti - the
  two-fold Vedic dharma for the benefit of the humans.
  9. The Vedic method is peculiar in that there are the Devatas who are
  admissibly highly evolved beings.  Yet, these have become so only by their
  performing vedic yajnas, etc. which are also invariably addressed to
  devatas.  Thus, there have to be devatas even before devatas come into
  existence owing to their past karma directed at devatas.  That is the
  reason why an anAdi concept is invariably attached to creation, jiva,
  avidya, samsara, bandha, etc.
  10. There is the Br.Up. mantra: tad yo yo devaanAm pratyabudhyata,
  tathaRShINAm tathaa manuShyANAm ...which says that whoever from the human,
  rishi or devata classes comes to realize this Brahman, becomes Brahman,
  with sarvAtmabhAva.  This mantra recognizes the categories of manushyas
  distinct from rishis and devatas.
  11. There is the statement of a krama sRShTi (a gradual creation) and a
  yugapat sRShTi  ( a simultaneous creation of all beings) in the Veda. Both
  these are recognized by the traditon. The Mundaka mantra: tadetat satyam
  yathA sudIptAt pAvakAt visphulingAH sahasrashaH utpadyante...meaning: just
  as sparks, in thousands, emanate from the blazing fire, the various beings
  come into being.  A similar mantra from the Kaivalya upanishad and the
  Br.Up are quoted to support yugapat sRShti.  The Vedic sRShTi is always of
  the type where all the beings, with their classes and  sub classes, are
  created, rather manifest, at the time of sRShTi, after pralayam ends.  The
  Veda is also available at the very beginning for the humans to apply it in
  their lives.  For, as soon as  a child is born, or rather even before the
  birth of a child, the Veda-based rituals  are to be performed for

Maybe members have suitable explanations to the above while accommodating
the evolution theory into the Vedic method.  Also, a question arises: Is it
a flaw if for some reason the Veda apaurusheyatva/prAmANya is not
understood/explained logically within  the context of the modern evolution
theory?  My answer is: In the past there have been a number of jnanis who
have followed the Veda as the traditional pUrvAchAryas followed and
obtained freedom from samsara.  The so-called illogicality behind veda
apaurusheyatva/pramANya did not come in their way of becoming
self-realized.  The modern theory of evolution was completely unknown to

Some loud thinking, to evoke further thoughts...


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