[Advaita-l] Eternal Loka

[rajaramvenk at gmail.com]

Hare Krishna. In advaita, sarvajna ishwara, maya sabalita brahman is beyond particular names and forms, of inconceivable form or in other words any particular form. He is eternal. He is called Vishnu, Narayana, Vasudeva, Rudra, Siva, Parashakti etc. and is the goal of bhaktas. On liberation, a jnani-bhakta becomes this as Jaimini, Appayya etc. assert.  This Ishwara manifests particular names and forms - prakrtam and aprakrtam. The aprakrta names and forms are eternal because they are not caused by karma and hence not destroyed on exhaustion thereof, existing as long as maya exists. The prakrtam names and forms are non-eternal because they are karmic but they exist in potent form as Ishwara. 

I have given clear evidence for it from Sridhara etc. that Vaikunta (non-different from the Ishwara talked of earlier) is eternal. Why don't someone show from the works of advaita acharyas that Vaikuntha is not eternal instead of labouring without textual evidence? 
Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device

-----Original Message-----
From: Venkatesh Murthy <vmurthy36 at gmail.com>
Sender: "Advaita-l" <advaita-l-bounces at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2013 11:29:25 
To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta<advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
Reply-To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta
 <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Eternal Loka

Namaste

If you are saying Ishwara Vishnu is eternal with his four hands holding
Shankha and Chakra it is wrong according to Upanishads. In Upanishads it is
only Formless Nirguna Brahma is mentioned. Vishnu and Siva are not
described. They are Saguna Brahma. But they are also Nirguna Brahma if you
neglect the Qualities like Shankha Chakra and Trishula. If you see Vishnu
is Nirguna Brahma he is eternal. If he is Saguna Brahma carrying Shankha
and Chakra he is not eternal.

Para Brahma is Formless and has no Qualities. He is Nirguna. Ishwara is
Ruler of World. He has Qualities. But the Qualities are Maya only.


On Mon, Aug 12, 2013 at 2:29 PM, Rajaram Venkataramani <
rajaramvenk at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hare Krishna. Namaskaram. Eka iIva vAdA, as you probably know, know is not
> simplistic. There are at least two variations of it. In one, nirguna
> brahman reflected on avidya is the prototype jiva. In another, Ishwara
> reflected on avidya is the prototype jiva. This jiva as reflection of
> brahman is non-different from Ishwara or Brahman depending on what is
> considered as the bimba. The prototype jiva reflected on the minds is the
> jiva. When one jiva gets liberated, it remains as the bimba for other
> jivas. In the case where Ishwara is considered as the bimba, the jiva
> exists as Ishwara until all jivas get liberated (sarva mukti). In the case
> where Brahman is considered as the bimba, the jiva exists as Brahman until
> all jivas get liberated. That is why we see this world though other jivas
> such as vama deva are said to have attained liberation. The variation of
> this is that the liberation of vamadeva etc. is artha vada, a glorification
> of the efficacy of the teachings of the sastras to tell us that by
> following the process we will get liberated.
>
> In none of the understanding of eka jiva vada, we can violate sabda
> pramana. The logic of jaimini, sabara et al regarding sabdArtha nityatva is
> valid for a eka jIva vadin as it is for a nana jiva vadin, which is only a
> special case of the former. When Sridhara and Sastras say that Vishnu /
> Vaikuntha is eternal, we have to admit that. We conceive of eternal
> entities (Ishwara, Vedas etc.) and non-eternal entities (pot, our bodies
> etc.). They are both valid conceptions. Based on sabda and anumana, if we
> conclude that nothing exists but me, the Self, we still have to admit of
> eternal entities within vyavahara as long as we have pratyaksha there of.
> Otherwise, we will become a-pramanikas.
>
> Please note that Appayya Dikshitar, who is said to have sung of Lord Siva
> even when he forced a loss of mental control through medicines, does not
> say Siva or Kailasa is non-eternal. Sankara comments that Siva and Vishnu
> are eternal. Should we contradict them relying on our ill-formed logic?
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 12, 2013 at 7:17 AM, Venkatesh Murthy <vmurthy36 at gmail.com
> >wrote:
>
> > Namaste
> >
> > In Eka Jeeva Vada if Ishwara is in my dream how can he become eternal? If
> > my dream ends he will not be there.
> >
> > If you are saying my dream will never end it is against Sabda Pramana. If
> > you are saying Ishwara is eternal as long as dream is there it is
> > contradicting statement. Because Eternal means Always and for all
> > conditions. Only Nirguna Brahma is Eternal. Ishwara and World are not
> > eternal. Vaikuntha and Kailasa are not eternal. You and all these Jeevas
> > are not eternal. Only I Nirguna Brahma am eternal.
> >
> > On Sun, Aug 11, 2013 at 9:24 PM, Rajaram Venkataramani <
> > rajaramvenk at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > In eka jIva vAda also, you consider the vyavahara, Ishwara and sastras
> to
> > > be eternal as long as you perceive them as otherwise you will violate
> > valid
> > > sabda pramana. Though sastras are your imagination, you have imagined
> > them
> > > with a set of attributes which include apareusheyatvam, nityatvam etc.
> > You
> > > imagine (based on sastras) an Ishwara who is trans spatio-temporal
> > > limitations, that is exist before and after creation cycles.
> > >
> > > As you know, there are variations of eka jIva vada but in none of them
> > you
> > > consider Ishwara to be created and destroyed.
> > > On Sun, Aug 11, 2013 at 6:11 AM, Venkatesh Murthy <vmurthy36 at gmail.com
> > > >wrote:
> > >
> > > > Namaste
> > > >
> > > > I have gone through the messages on this topic. There is big
> confusion
> > > and
> > > > doubts here because no body is recognizing Eka Jeeva Vada. If you
> > accept
> > > > Eka Jeeva Vada all doubts are cleared.
> > > >
> > > > I am the one and only Jeeva in the Universe. I have created the
> > Universe
> > > as
> > > > my dream. The Ishwara is in my dream only. The dream is Vyavahara.
> If I
> > > get
> > > > Brahma Jnana by studying Upanishads in my dream taught by dream Guru
> > the
> > > > dream will end. There is no Ishwara and no Universe when I realize I
> am
> > > > Brahman. What is eternal? When I have the dream Ishwara is there. But
> > > when
> > > > the dream has ended he is not there. He is in the dream only.
> Vaikuntha
> > > and
> > > > Kailasa are in my dream. When dream has ended they are not there.
> They
> > > are
> > > > not eternal. Ishwara is not eternal also. Because they are in my
> dream.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, Aug 11, 2013 at 7:57 AM, V Subrahmanian <
> > > v.subrahmanian at gmail.com
> > > > >wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > On Sat, Aug 10, 2013 at 9:52 PM, Rajaram Venkataramani <
> > > > > rajaramvenk at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >  Where does Appayya Dikshitar say that this Vaikuntha or Vishnu
> is
> > > > > > non-eternal? If Ishwara is a concept, so are all vyavahara
> satyams.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > This must be in reference to the Brahma sutra of the fourth
> chapter.
> > > >  4.4.5
> > > > > gives Jaimini's view which appears to be alluded to by Appayya
> > > Dikshitar.
> > > > > 4.4.6 gives the view of auDulomi that opposes Jaimini's. In 4.4.7
> > > > > bAdarAyaNa the author of the brahma sutras settles the issue by
> > > accepting
> > > > > both Jaimini's and auDulomi's views as admissible from the
> > vyavaharika
> > > > and
> > > > > pAramarthika viewpoints.  Pl. see the sha
> > > > > nkara bhashyam for this.
> > > > >
> > > > > Appayya Dikshita in his nayamanjari (the fourth metrical work
> > > delineating
> > > > > the various adhikaraNa-s of the brahma sutras from the four
> schools'
> > > > points
> > > > > of view: dvaita, VA, shivaVA and Advaita, condenses the above
> > > adhikaraNa
> > > > > called 'brAhmAdhikaraNam' in two simple verses, as stated by me
> > above.
> > > > > Thus the 'assertion' by Dikshitar is only the alluding to the
> > Jaimini's
> > > > > (vyAvahArika) view and NOT the paramarthika vedantic position.   If
> > you
> > > > > recall, during our joint session with Sri Mani Dravid SastriNaH on
> > > skype
> > > > > you raised this topic and he referred to this adhikaraNam of the
> BSB.
> > > > >
> > > > > vs
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > As to the significance of all these vyavahara realities for a
> > > > vedantins,
> > > > > a
> > > > > > mukta becomes this Ishwara. As you must know, Appayya Dikshitar
> > takes
> > > > up
> > > > > > the question of whether a mukta becomes Parabrahman or this
> Ishwara
> > > and
> > > > > > asserts that he becomes Ishwara.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Archives: http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/
> > > > > http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.culture.religion.advaita
> > > > >
> > > > > To unsubscribe or change your options:
> > > > > http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/advaita-l
> > > > >
> > > > > For assistance, contact:
> > > > > listmaster at advaita-vedanta.org
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Regards
> > > >
> > > > -Venkatesh
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Archives: http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/
> > > > http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.culture.religion.advaita
> > > >
> > > > To unsubscribe or change your options:
> > > > http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/advaita-l
> > > >
> > > > For assistance, contact:
> > > > listmaster at advaita-vedanta.org
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Archives: http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/
> > > http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.culture.religion.advaita
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe or change your options:
> > > http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/advaita-l
> > >
> > > For assistance, contact:
> > > listmaster at advaita-vedanta.org
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Regards
> >
> > -Venkatesh
> > _______________________________________________
> > Archives: http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/
> > http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.culture.religion.advaita
> >
> > To unsubscribe or change your options:
> > http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/advaita-l
> >
> > For assistance, contact:
> > listmaster at advaita-vedanta.org
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Archives: http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/
> http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.culture.religion.advaita
>
> To unsubscribe or change your options:
> http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/advaita-l
>
> For assistance, contact:
> listmaster at advaita-vedanta.org
>



-- 
Regards

-Venkatesh
_______________________________________________
Archives: http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/
http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.culture.religion.advaita

To unsubscribe or change your options:
http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/advaita-l

For assistance, contact:
listmaster at advaita-vedanta.org