[Advaita-l] Fw: dreamless sleep

[V Subrahmanian]

On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 11:14 AM, H S Chandramouli
<hschandramouli at gmail.com>wrote:

> H S CHANDRAMOULI
>
> Dear Sri Subrahymanyamji,
>
> I am a little bit confused on your reply. I couldnt refer to Panchadashi
> immediately as i am out of town. But the word Pragnanaghana is applicable
> to the condition in sushupti only ( refer mandukya ) and not to the other
> two states. You seem to have mentioned exactly the opposite. Have I
> misunderstood you. kindly clarify.
>

Dear Sri Chandramouli ji,

The term 'prajnanaghana' is not used by me/Panchadashi/commentary in the
reply.  It is 'vijnAnamaya' in its ghanIbhUta avasthA.  The author is
comparing this solidified, ghanIbhAva, state (upon waking) with the
'molten' or 'vilayAvasthA' that is the Anandamaya in suShupti.

The term prajnAnaghana of the mAnDUkya means that the individual, specific
knowledge-s of the waking state are not so identifiable in the deep sleep
state; they have become a mass, ghana, as it were.

regards
subrahmanian.v


>
> Regards
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 11:24 AM, V Subrahmanian <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com
> >wrote:
>
> > Namaste
> >
> > There was a discussion on this topic in the Advaitin forum and a reply,
> > based on the Panchadashi 11th chapter was presented there:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/advaitin/conversations/messages/50519
> >
> > A part of the above post is reproduced here and more can be read from the
> > above post:
> >
> > //The Panchadashi is explaining 'how it now experiences in deep sleep the
> > bliss.' Also, the Panchadashi is addressing the question: how or who
> > experienced the 'condition of obliviion' in deep sleep state. In the
> verse
> > 11.62 the vijnAnamaya kosha (pramAtR, knower) and the manomaya kosha
> > (pramANam, the instrument) are admitted to be 'dissolved' in their moola
> > kAraNam, ajnAnam.
> >
> > But then we have to contend with this question: Upon waking up one
> recalls
> > the sleep experience. If the vijnAnamaya that was
> > 'dissolved'/absent/unavailable/inactive at the time of sleep, how is it
> > that it (vijnAnamaya) is now able to recall the experience? For, it is
> only
> > the one who has earlier experienced something can recall that experience.
> > For this the answer in the verse 63 and the commentary is: Even though
> the
> > vijnanamaya is admitted to be 'dissolved' during sleep, it is not
> admitted
> > to be totally/completely lost/destroyed (svarUpanAsha abhAvaH). The
> > anandamaya, which is known as the vilayAvasthA, molten-upAdhi, is the
> > experiencer of the deep sleep. And the vijnaanamaya, which is known as
> the
> > ghaneebhAva, solidified-upAdhi, is the one who remembers it and expresses
> > it as 'I slept happily, not knowing anything'.
> >
> > The teekA further explains that the antaHkaraNam is the one that becomes
> > 'molten' in the form of sleep and later becomes 'solidified' upon waking
> in
> > the form of the vijnAnamaya (ghaneebhavati).
> >
> > The Atma, the jiva, who has the antaHkaraNa as the upAdhi, in the state
> of
> > sleep was in the molten state and got the appendage 'anandamaya'. Upon
> > waking the jeeva becomes solidified getting the name vijnAnamaya. Thus,
> > according to this verse 63 and the commentary the jeeva as anandamaya
> > (molten) in deep sleep experiences and the same jeeva as vijnanamaya
> > (solidified) upon waking recollects (and gives expression to) the sleep
> > experience. This is the clear picture as per the Panchadashi. //
> >
> > warm regards
> > subrahmanian.v
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 8:17 AM, kuntimaddi sadananda <
> > kuntimaddisada at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > > PraNams to all.
> > >
> > > I am forwarding a question posed by a sincere seeker in private mail,
> > > since the discussion may be relevant to many. I am not posting my
> answer
> > to
> > > him to the list. Those who want to address the issue raised by the
> seeker
> > > are welcome. If the answer differs from mine and is relevant, I will
> > > definitely forward that to him.
> > >
> > > Hari Om!
> > > Sadananda
> > >
> > > > Acharya - Pranams
> > > >
> > > > BMI complex, time, space and universe cease to exist in
> > > > dreamless sleep state (total blankness) but the witnessing
> > > > consciousness still exists in dreamless sleep state. The
> > > > statement of proof of the existence of sakshi is how can I
> > > > know there was total blankness in dreamless sleep state if
> > > > there is no consciousness to know it. (I can only ask this
> > > > question in the waking state). I also can only say that I
> > > > was slept happily in the waking state The knowledge of
> > > > no-apprehension is also a knowledge.
> > > >
> > > > but sakshi is not the knower, sakhi only passively shining
> > > > whether or not there is reflecting medium. Mind is the
> > > > knower. Mind didn't exist in dreamless sleep state. So
> > > > how can the above  statement be a valid proof of the
> > > > existence of sakshi in dreamless sleep
> > > >  state since the knower itself didn't exist?
> > > >
> > > > I can only infer the blankness in dreamless sleep state base
> > > > on the absence of memory during the deep sleep, I only can
> > > > recall the memory at the moment before deep sleep (because
> > > > no memory in deep sleep state) and compare it to the
> > > > experience of waking up in the morning. There is no memory
> > > > of me have a dream also and I wake up happily. So in waking
> > > > state I infer I experience the deep sleep . (even the
> > > > ahamkara 'I', can not experience deep sleep because
> > > > ahamkara also ceased to exist).
> > > >
> > > > then Is it possible the non apprehension knowledge only
> > > > caused by the absence of memory during the deep sleep? (I
> > > > can only say I have no memory also in waking state only)
> > > >
> > > > but I also think: even in waking state, the sakshi can not
> > > > be seen or prove  because if I can see Sakshi or prove
> > > > it then who is witnessing the ahamkara that trying to prove
> > > > the existence of the sakshi?
> > > >
> > > > so not only in the deep
> > > >  sleep state but also in waking state I can not know the
> > > > sakshi. and deep sleep state is the state of ignorance, when
> > > > I try to know the ignorance, the ignorance always run away,
> > > > it is like trying to see the darkness using
> > > > flashlight.  So it is true that I don't need to
> > > > prove the existence of sakshi in dreamless sleep state
> > > > because only total ignorance is in that state, self
> > > > knowledge also didn't exist in the dreamless state
> > > > (because any knowledge including Atmavidya only exist in the
> > > > mind). and it is enough for me to know the sakshi is the
> > > > witness of the ignorance and knowledge.(this knowledge also
> > > > only exist in waking state in the mind, it is the ahamkara
> > > > who say this, sakshi can not think or know anything but
> > > > sakshi is the only one that make any knowledge or ignorance
> > > > can be known, no mind there will be no knowledge and of
> > > > course no self realization).
> > > >
> > > > and pure consciousness without any reflecting medium
> > > > isn't that same with total
> > > >  blankness? because consciousness can not say. "I am
> > > > the pure consciousness, I am the self existent entity even
> > > > without reflecting medium". And consciousness also can
> > > > not see himself without reflecting medium. I also have heard
> > > > the saying: "I don't need mirror to know that I am
> > > > exist". I still know my self exist even I don't
> > > > have mirror because I still have ahamkara or mind (that acts
> > > > as reflecting medium) that is illumined by the sakshi and
> > > > the reflection is received by the sakshi again. without
> > > > ahamkara or mind, sakshi is just shining without any
> > > > reflection comeback to Sakhi and then there is no self
> > > > knowledge. (reflection of consciousness that is received by
> > > > witnessing consciousness is the mandatory for knowledge to
> > > > be exist)  Is that true Acharya?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > thank you very much Acharya for helping me. my prostrations
> > > > to Acharya
> > >
> > >
> > >
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