[Advaita-l] Desire, Jnana and Moksha

[rajaramvenk at gmail.com]

Dear Shri Chandramouli, 

You do not need a paurusheya or apaurusheya text to tell you about your Self. You know you exist. You may conclude that your body was born and will die at some time due to inference and others telling you that. You may conclude that your Self was born and will die with the body. You cannot have direct experience of negating your self. Is it not?

Best Regards
RV
Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device

-----Original Message-----
From: H S Chandramouli <hschandramouli at gmail.com>
Sender: "Advaita-l" <advaita-l-bounces at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2013 11:40:35 
To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta<advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
Reply-To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta
 <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Desire, Jnana and Moksha

H S CHANDRAMOULI

Dear Sri Subramanyamji,

This is regarding the last para of your mail wherein you mention that
Shruti is not only pramana for realizing the Truth. I am sorry to differ.
It could send out a wrong message. Hence this mail. It has been stressed
repeatedly that shrutis are the ONLY pramanas for this purpose.They are not
the works of human beings ( Apaurusheya ) while yuktis can be so.  When it
is said that for attaining jnana recourse has to be made to shruti,yukti
and anubhava, it is always mentioned that yukti and anubhava have to be
understood consistent with what is stated is the shrutis. In other words
what is concluded in the shrutis have to be taken as the Data while the
yuktis to be adopted have to lead to this Data as conclusion.

Regards


On Sat, Dec 7, 2013 at 10:18 AM, V Subrahmanian <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com>wrote:

> Dear All,
>
> It would benefit many members to look into the archives for several
> extracts from the Jivanmukti Viveka of Swami Vidyaranya.  In those extracts
> the analysis of the person Sage Yajnavalkya (Y) is available.  In short,
> Swami Vidyaranya takes up this case and at the outset establishes that Y is
> an aparokShajnAni, a renowned Acharya of BrahmavidyA celebrated by the
> Brihadaranyaka upanishad.  Later he goes on to show instances, available
> from this very upanishad, to demonstrate how Y had given in to desire (for
> wealth, cattle, name/fame), anger (cursing shAkalya to death), engaging in
> debates, etc.  Finally the revered author shows that from the fact that Y
> decided to renounce worldly life (he was still a householder with two
> wives) in search of 'peace' to convey that Y, despite being an
> aparokShajnani, with cessation of rebirth guaranteed, yet did not enjoy
> peace, owing to desire, anger, etc. which co-existed with his aparoksha
> jnanam.
>
> Reading the various excerpts from the above work in the discussions would
> put to rest several misconceptions about the concept of jnana, moksha,
> vasana, prarabdha karma, jivan mukti, etc.
>
> Above all it should be remembered that in Vedanta it is not that the
> shruti/smRti is the ONLY pramANa.  Yukti, and more importantly,
> vidvadanubhava, are also regarded as significant pramana-s.  While the
> sthitaprajna lakshana detailed in the BG is a guide book, instances of
> jnani-s available both in the upanishads and smrtis and outside them, in
> the sampradaya, are all equally guides.  I am mentioning this in particular
> reference to Sri Venkatesh's recent post citing the fifth chapter verses of
> the BG.  What all this shows is: one might wish the jnani to be this way or
> that but the 'vastu sthiti' should also be not lost sight of.  This is
> exactly what the JMV has accomplished.
>
> regards
> subrahmanian.v
>
>
> On Sat, Dec 7, 2013 at 8:35 AM, Nithin Sridhar <sridhar.nithin at gmail.com
> >wrote:
>
> > But, Jnana cannot arise in a person with impure chitta. Chitta Shuddhi is
> > the requirement for Jnana Sadhana. Chitta Shuddhi means destruction of
> all
> > mental passions like kama, krodha etc. For a person to hear Mahavakyas
> and
> > attain Aparoksha Jnana, he must have developed qualities of viveka etc
> > which is possible due to chitta shuddhi. This is my understanding.
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Dec 7, 2013 at 1:13 AM, <rajaramvenk at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Dear Shri Chandramouli, why three conditions should be satisfied? If
> > > ajnana is removed, then he is a mukta. The very fact he lives on makes
> > him
> > > a jivan mukta. Isn't this alone enough? For the mind to relish brahma
> > > jnanam, however, we need mano-nasa and vasana-kshaya. My understanding
> of
> > > mano-nasa is that when I see a pot, I see it for what it really is -
> all
> > > blissful brahman non-different my self -  instead of letting the mind
> > > undergo modification in the form of the pot or in other words I don't
> see
> > > it. My understanding of vasana kshaya is I'm  clear of impressions from
> > > past experiences of the pot and there's no internal absorption in the
> > pot.
> > > These two are dependent on control of the mind not the rise of
> knowledge
> > > itself. Is it not?
> > >
> > > Dear Shri Nitin, the bad qualities will be gone even when one has
> > > perfected naishkamya karma. He is simply interested in executing his
> > > svadharma. It will also be gone when one perform bhakti as his
> activities
> > > are done only for the Lord. The rise of jnana is not dependent on
> > > perfection in karma or bhakti though they help to make the mind pure.
> It
> > is
> > > simply dependent on the instruction of maha vakyas and its absorption.
> Is
> > > it not? It may still leave the mind functional with its good and bad
> > > qualities if it was not controlled. Is it not?
> > > Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Nithin Sridhar <sridhar.nithin at gmail.com>
> > > Sender: "Advaita-l" <advaita-l-bounces at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>Date:
> > > Fri, 6 Dec 2013 21:20:46
> > > To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta<
> > > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> > > Reply-To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta
> > >  <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> > > Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Desire, Jnana and Moksha
> > >
> > > I agree with Venkatesh Murthy. Even Sureshwaracharya in his Naishkarmya
> > > Siddhi clearly says a Jivanmukta is devoid of desires, anger etc
> > >
> > > -Nithin
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 8:49 PM, Venkatesh Murthy <vmurthy36 at gmail.com
> > > >wrote:
> > >
> > > > Namaste
> > > >
> > > > The Jivanmukti being described by some members in this Advaita group
> is
> > > > against Krishna's teachings in the Gita.
> > > >
> > > > In the fifth chapter shlokas below Krishna  has very clearly given
> the
> > > > picture of Jivanmukta. He must have controlled anger and desire. He
> is
> > > > yukta and sukhee. He is Jivanmukta. He goes to Brahma Nirvana. He
> > becomes
> > > > liberated. But members here are saying the Jivanmukta can have
> desires
> > > and
> > > > anger and greed and other bad qualities. We can conveniently say they
> > are
> > > > all Prarabdha and he can enjoy Jivanmukti. This is not correct.
> > > >
> > > > shak{}notiihaiva yaH soDhuM praak{}shariiravimokshaNaat.h .
> > > > kaamakrodhodbhavaM vegaM sa yuk{}taH sa sukhii naraH .. 5\.23..
> > > >
> > > > yo.antaHsukho.antaraaraamastathaantarjyotireva yaH .
> > > > sa yogii brahmanirvaaNaM brahmabhuuto.adhigach{}chhati .. 5\.24..
> > > >
> > > > labhante brahmanirvaaNamR^ishhayaH kshiiNakalmashhaaH .
> > > > chhinnadvaidhaa yataatmaanaH sarvabhuutahite rataaH .. 5\.25..
> > > >
> > > > kaamakrodhaviyuk{}taanaa.n yatiinaa.n yatachetasaam.h .
> > > > abhito brahmanirvaaNaM vartate viditaatmanaam.h .. 5\.26..
> > > >
> > > > sparshaankR^itvaa bahirbaahyaa.nshchakshushchaivaantare bhruvoH .
> > > > praaNaapaanau samau kR^itvaa naasaabhyantarachaariNau .. 5\.27..
> > > >
> > > > yatendriyamanobuddhirmunirmokshaparaayaNaH .
> > > > vigatech{}chhaabhayakrodho yaH sadaa muk{}ta eva saH .. 5\.28..
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 11:36 AM, H S Chandramouli
> > > > <hschandramouli at gmail.com>wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > H S CHANDRAMOULI
> > > > >
> > > > > Dear Sri Rajaramji,
> > > > >
> > > > > The answer to your question based on Jivanmuktiviveka by Sri
> > Vidyaranya
> > > > is
> > > > > as follows
> > > > >
> > > > > For one to become a Jivanmukta, three conditions have to be
> satisfied
> > > > > namely attainment of jnana, manonasha and vasanakshya. But for
> > > liberation
> > > > > and absence of rebirth attainment of jnana alone is sufficient. It
> > may
> > > be
> > > > > pertinent to point out that there are other views amongst advaitins
> > on
> > > > the
> > > > > question of when a person becomes a Jivanmukta. Many are of the
> view
> > > that
> > > > > on attainment of jnana itself a person becomes a jivanmukta.
> However
> > > > there
> > > > > are no differences concerning rebirth. attainment of jnana alone is
> > > > > sufficient for escaping from rebirth.
> > > > >
> > > > > When Ajnana is destroyed , Jnana automatically without any further
> > > effort
> > > > > as it is Swayamprakashah. This also leads to destruction of all
> > > sanchita
> > > > > and agami karma phalas. But prarabdha karma phala can be exhausted
> > only
> > > > by
> > > > > experiencing it. Hence the body continues to function. Dependimg on
> > the
> > > > > sadhanas carriedout prior to jnana it is posssible that the other
> two
> > > > > attributes namely mano nasha and vasanakshaya might not have taken
> > > place.
> > > > > For this further nishtha in brahman is needed. After these two are
> > also
> > > > > achieved he becomes a jivanmukta in this body itself.. However even
> > > > without
> > > > > these there is no rebirth for one who has attained jnana. Once the
> > > > current
> > > > > body dies, there is no further bodies to be taken.
> > > > >
> > > > > Regards
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 12:32 PM, <rajaramvenk at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hare Krishna! It is said that jnAna is the sole cause of
> liberation
> > > > but a
> > > > > > jnani need not have gone through total mano nasa and vasana
> kshaya.
> > > It
> > > > is
> > > > > > said some jnanis don't even sublate kama, krodha etc. If there
> are
> > > > > desires
> > > > > > are left in the mind, won't the sukshuma sarira go in to a new
> body
> > > to
> > > > > > enjoy that? How can there be moksha?
> > > > > > Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
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> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Regards
> > > >
> > > > -Venkatesh
> > > > _______________________________________________
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