[Advaita-l] Desire, Jnana and Moksha

श्रीमल्ललितालालितः lalitaalaalitah at lalitaalaalitah.com
Sat Dec 7 15:37:48 CST 2013

*श्रीमल्ललितालालितः *www.lalitaalaalitah.com

On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 8:49 PM, Venkatesh Murthy <vmurthy36 at gmail.com>wrote:

> Namaste
> The Jivanmukti being described by some members in this Advaita group is
> against Krishna's teachings in the Gita.

​Actually, the way others are explaining kR^iShna, is not logical. so we
were explaining other way.
We support logic more that kR^iShNa !! Illogical kR^iShNa may be useful for
believers, but for those who have some thinking power can't be influenced
by that. Moreover, belief is not enough to assure that believed will lead
to desired.

Again, we were talking about GYAnI and not jIvanmukta. Both are not
essentially same.
GYAnI and jIvanmukta-s possessed with jIvanmukti of lower intensity may
have kAma, etc. - was supported by us.
We don't support that jIvanmukta of highest level and videhamukta have
kAma, etc.
Whatever kR^iShNa says in 5th chapter are for jIvanmukta.

To know differences of GYAnI and jIvanmukta search archives.

> In the fifth chapter shlokas below Krishna  has very clearly given the
> picture of Jivanmukta.

Correct, 'of jIvanmukta', not 'of mere GYAnI'.

> He must have controlled anger and desire. He is
> yukta and sukhee. He is Jivanmukta.

> He goes to Brahma Nirvana.

This can not be known by us. So, this is not laxaNa in the manner we know.

> He becomes
> liberated.

​This applies to GYAnI with rAga, etc. too.
​Actually, as the jIvanmukta *becomes *liberated is said, so it is clear
that some type of bondage is also accepted. Now, it is your duty to find

On the other hand, we accept that GYAnI has no bondage of avidyA and
janma-maraNa even if he is in body and has rAga, etc.(i.e. bondage of rAga,

> But members here are saying the Jivanmukta can have desires and
> anger and greed and other bad qualities.

​Baseless accusation.
Don't put your misunderstanding on us.
We just said that GYAnI may have greed, as had yAGYavalkya.
jIvanmukta-s of non-ultimate level also have rAga, etc.
What to say, the prArabdha forces even yogI to come to vyavahAra, so same
applies to non-yogI GYAnI.
See shrI-vidyAraNya :

*prArabdhakarmaNi kShINe vyavahAro nivartate |karmAkShaye tvasau naiva
shAmyeddhyAnasahasrataH || *
It is that when prArabdha-karma becomes weak, the vyavahAra ends, as in
suShupti and samAdhi. But, when they are ready to fruit, even thousands of
meditations can't suppress them. When they can't be suppressed, there will
be not jIvanmukti.
prArabdha will stay till the present body of GYAnI falls. So, till his
death, we have to accept that there was prArabdha-bhoga in him, i.e. he was
enjoying results of prArabdha. Now, the enjoyment is not possible without
the notion of being jIva. So, accepting prArabdha-bhoga means that we are
accepting that he can't stay in samAdhI always and he can't have 'I'm
brahman'-notions always.
See again:

*nanu ayaM bandhaH(karttR^itvabhoktR^itvasukhaduHkhalakShaNaH) kiM cittAt
nivAryate | na | asambhavAt | yadA tu jalAd dravatvaM nivAryeta
vahnervoShNatvaM tadA cittAt karttR^itvAdinivAraNasambhavaH ,
svAbhAvikatvaM tu sarvvatra samAnam |maivam | AtyantikanivAraNAsambhave.api
abhibhavasya sambhavAt |*
*na ca sukhaduHkhAdibhogaH cittavR^ittiM vinA sampAdayituM shakyate | *

You are equating GYAnI and jIvanmukta of ultimate level and that's
confusing you.

See shrI-vidyAraNya says that GYAna is knowing the thing as it is and it is
not jIvanmukti-vrata.

*evamArabdhabhogo.api shanaiH shAmyati no haThAt |bhogakAle kadAcittu
martyo.ahamiti bhAsate ||naitAvatAparAdhena tattvaj.NnAnaM vinashyati |
jIvanmuktivrataM nedaM kintu vastusthitiH khalu ||*
The enjoyment of prArabdha completes slowly in GYAnI, not by force(fast).
And when there is the time of enjoyment(of prArabdha in GYAnI), there could
be realization that 'I'm man/enjoyer'.(Actually, without that notion he
can't be said to be enjoying prArabdha. So, in other work shrI-vidyAraNya
says that such notion is essential and can not be avoided.)
But, just because such a thought exists for some time, his GYAna is not
destroyed. That is, such a person who is enjoying sukha and duHkha, is
accepted as GYAnI even when his 'I'm brahman' notion is not present.
This(GYAna) is not jIvan-mukti-vrata, but the reality.


> We can conveniently say they are
> all Prarabdha and he can enjoy Jivanmukti.

​o, GYAnI can't enjoy ultimate-jIvanmukti in presence of an iota of rAga,
etc. He needs to suppress them.

> shak{}notiihaiva yaH soDhuM praak{}shariiravimokshaNaat.h .
> kaamakrodhodbhavaM vegaM sa yuk{}taH sa sukhii naraH .. 5\.23..

​If this control of force of kAma-krodha is ultimate, then no person can
become sukhI and yukta, as we have seen even great person committing sins.
If this is of some lower level, even we are not devoid of that.
So, the control meant here is in middle somewhere.

> yo.antaHsukho.antaraaraamastathaantarjyotireva yaH .
> sa yogii brahmanirvaaNaM brahmabhuuto.adhigach{}chhati .. 5\.24..
> labhante brahmanirvaaNamR^ishhayaH kshiiNakalmashhaaH .
> chhinnadvaidhaa yataatmaanaH sarvabhuutahite rataaH .. 5\.25..

​xINakalmaShAH is said here, not 'naShTa-kalmaShAH'. So, these R^iShi-s
have kalmaSha, is to be accepted. And if they are jIvanmukta for you, why
not me and others.
Now, the thing 'sarvabhUtahite ratAH'. First of all it is not possible.
Whatever you do, does some good to a group and harms others. So, this is
not possible.
Even if it was somehow accepted, is this a rule that jIvanmukta should
follow ? If yes, then he is not yet free. And, if he is doing because of
karuNA and love, then he also has rAga, etc. So, why should we consider him
jIvanmukta ?


> sparshaankR^itvaa bahirbaahyaa.nshchakshushchaivaantare bhruvoH .
> praaNaapaanau samau kR^itvaa naasaabhyantarachaariNau .. 5\.27..
> yatendriyamanobuddhirmunirmokshaparaayaNaH .
> vigatech{}chhaabhayakrodho yaH sadaa muk{}ta eva saH .. 5\.28..

​Now, this dispels the  'sahaja-samAdhi-paxa' presented by someone. Here it
is said that dhyAna is needed.
Again for you, see that the lack of ichchhA-bhaya-krodha can be supported
for a specific time(in samAdhi and suShupti) in such GYAnI-yogI. This
suppression is jIvanmukti and the GYAnI-yogI is another name of jIvanmukta.
while GYAnI supported by us was not essentially yogI.​

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