[Advaita-l] Bondage and Liberation - Logical or Illogical?

[Ranga Rathnam]

Thanks

> Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 10:27:55 +0530
> From: v.subrahmanian at gmail.com
> To: advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
> Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Bondage and Liberation - Logical or Illogical?
> 
> The link works for me.  I just tested.  Try copying the URL on to your
> address bar and access.
> 
> subrahmanian.v
> 
> On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 4:47 AM, Ranga Rathnam <sranga1955 at hotmail.com>wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> > The link (mandukya bashya) doesn't seem to be working!
> >
> > regards
> > Rangarathnam
> >
> > > Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 17:12:59 +0530
> > > From: v.subrahmanian at gmail.com
> > > To: advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
> > > Subject: [Advaita-l] Bondage and Liberation - Logical or Illogical?
> > >
> > > The following is sourced from
> > > http://in.groups.yahoo.com/group/SUMADHWASEVA/message/23121
> > >
> > >
> > > // See the beauty of how Mahan Sri Vijayeendra Tirtha (Paramaguru of Sri
> > > Raghavendra Tirtha)
> > > explains the illogic of Adwaitham through a simple analogy or Upamaanam.
> > > Mahan Sri Vijayeendra Tirthar jestingly asks:* "Will a mother willingly
> > and
> > > knowingly give poison to her child and, then also give an anti-dote for
> > the
> > > poison? The answer is NO. Similarly, would anyone knowingly enter/
> > > jump into dirt and then clean oneselves up from dirt? The answer is NO.
> > So,
> > > why would the Lord create Jivatmas and knowingly put Avidya, Agyanam into
> > > them that then makes them think that they are different from the
> > Paramatma
> > > which supposedly they are not, as alluded by the Adwaitins? Then why
> > would
> > > the Lord also give them ways and means as prescribed by Adwaitins (i.e.,
> > > study of scriptures, atma vichaara etc. etc.) by sending a messenger who
> > > propounds Adwaita, as an anti-dote to overcome this Avidya? Similarly,
> > why
> > > would the Jivaatmas enter into dirt knowingly if they were originally
> > > unsullied that makes them deluded and, then later study scriptures to
> > > realise that they are the same as Brahman???Just does not make any
> > logical
> > > sense, isn't it?  Same with Adwaitham - just doesn't make any logical
> > > sense.  People hear these Adwaitham from some Swami ---nanda (there are
> > so
> > > many of these Adwaitham propounding Swami ---nanda) or read their books
> > and,
> > > then repeat what they have said like a parrot or copy and paste from
> > their
> > > sites without thinking.*  //
> > >
> > > A Response to the purported criticism by Sri Vijayeendra Tirtha
> > >
> > > [ Sri Vijayeendra Tirtha (1539 - 1595 AD) a revered Acharya of the Dvaita
> > > school is said to have been a contemporary of Sri Appayya Dikshitar.
> > > According to the Madhwas both have had  a number of debates and  Appayya
> > > lost every time. I have heard from a research scholar that both schools
> > > record about a particular  between the two and both schools have written
> > in
> > > their books that  their side won and the other, upon the humiliation,
> > made
> > > a secret exit from the location.]
> > >
> > > Sri Madhwacharya in his bhashya for the Mandukya passage
> > >
> > > //anAdi mAyayA supto yadA jIvaH prabuddhyate
> > > ajam anidram asvapnam advaitam budhyate tadA // [This is a kArikA (1.16)
> > as
> > > per Advaitins and a shruti passage for Dvaitins]
> > >
> > > [16 When the jiva, asleep under the influence of beginningless mAyA, is
> > > awakened, it then realizes the  birthless, sleepless and dreamless
> > > Non-duality. ]
> > >
> > > The Mandukya bhashya of Madhwa is available in this pdf:
> > >
> > > http://www.dvaita.net/pdf/shruti/manduka/mbtcomm.pdf<
> > http://http//www.dvaita.net/pdf/shruti/manduka/mbtcomm.pdf>
> > >
> > > Here the mantra of this Upanishad is numbered 2.8 in Sanskrit numerals on
> > > page 11 of the pdf:
> > >
> > > Sri Madhwacharya comments by citing a 'prakAshikA' verse:
> > >
> > > This verse that comes as the commentary for the above mantra can be
> > found a
> > > few lines below the above mantra on page 12 of the pdf:
> > >
> > > anAdimAyayA viShNorichchayA svApito yadA
> > >
> > > tayA prabodhamAyAti tadA viShNum prapashyati.
> > >
> > > [Due to anAdimAyA which means ViShNu's Will, the jIva has been made
> > to/put
> > > into the slumber of samsara. When the jIva, owing to  ViShNu's Will wakes
> > > up, then he gets the vision/realization of ViShNu.]
> > >
> > >
> > >    1. From the above it is clear that according to Madhwa the jiva is in
> > >    samsara because Vishnu has willed so. And the jiva's waking up to the
> > >    asamsAric truth is also due to the Lord's will.  Sri Vijayendra
> > Tirtha's
> > >    analogy of: //*a mother willingly and knowingly giving poison to her
> > >    child and, then also giving an antidote for the poison // accurately
> > fits
> > >    the commentarial statement of Madhwa.  For, samsAra is something to
> > be got
> > >    rid of even for the Dvaitins.  And The Lord (mother) has caused the
> > jiva to
> > >    be in samsara (poison) by willing so.  **And by providing **the jiva
> > >    ways and means (antidote) as prescribed by dwaitins (i.e., study of
> > >    scriptures, bhakti, atma vichaara etc. etc.) by sending a messenger
> > who
> > >    propounds dwaita which is the antidote for the poison of samsara the
> > Lord
> > >    (mother) wills that the jiva comes out of samsara. *
> > >    2. Madhvas accept that the one who gives ajnAna to the jiva is also
> > Hari
> > >    alone  (A verse from the nyAyasudhA-parimaLa 1-1-2 has been cited by
> > >    Dr.A.V.Nagasampige in his Kannada book 'mata traya sameekShA p.154:
> > 'tvam
> > >    muktido bandhado ato mato naH. tvam jnAnado ajnAnadashchAsi viShNo. [O
> > >    lord, we know You as the one who gives (us) liberation and who gives
> > >    bondage. You are the One that gives Jnana and ajnAna.]
> > >    3. According to Madhwa siddhAnta
> > >
> > http://www.sumadhwaseva.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/MADHWA-SIDDANTA-ENGLISH.pdf
> > >    12. What is the swaroopa of jeeva? - There are three swaroopaas // 1)
> > >    Mukti yogya - jnaanananda swaroopa,// those who are truly
> > jnAnAndasvarUpa
> > >    have been put into samsara by the Lord by His willing so.  According
> > to the
> > >    above cited Kannada book, jivas are of chidAnanda svarUpa. That book
> > does
> > >    not differentiate between jiva-s on this ground.
> > >    4. Why does the Lord do so? 9. What paramathma will get by srushti?
> > >    - Paramathma will not get anything by srusti. He does not need
> > anything.
> > >    He does it as if it is his leela.
> > >    5. All  the attributes of the Lord remain in Him inseparably.
> > >    6. 15. How does the jeeva get moksha from janmantara kleshaas? - by
> > the
> > >    mercy of Srihari only.
> > >    16. How does it happen?
> > >    - by Shravana, manana, hariguru bhakti, and shama damaadi.
> > >    7. The prospect of the jiva in Advaita 'knowingly' coming to samsara
> > is
> > >    also farfetched since the shAnkara bhAShya for the said kArikA is
> > clear
> > >    that it is due to its own avidyA that the jiva is in samsara.
> > >    8. The answer to the question //* would anyone knowingly enter/
> > >    jump into dirt and then clean oneself up from dirt?// is also
> > available in
> > >    the Madhva siddhAnta: Hari gives the jivas ajnAna in order that they
> > remain
> > >    in samsara. And jivas are paratantra-s and have to depend on Hari for
> > being
> > >    in bandha and getting mokSha.  *
> > >    9. Neither Dvaita nor Advaita lends to the theory of 'the Lord
> > creating
> > >    jivAtma-s'. They are anAdi in both schools.  Only that in Advaita
> > jIvatvam
> > >    is a bhrama, again not caused by Ishwara.
> > >
> > > In conclusion, I would like to point out that whether in Dvaita or in
> > > Advaita, bondage is due to ajnAna and moksha is due to jnAna.  While
> > Dvaita
> > > stresses Hari's instrumentality explicitly, Advaita acknowledges
> > > IshvarAnugraha for AdvaitavAsanA but does not admit that Ishwara is
> > > responsible for bondage.  I have reported before in this forum that
> > during
> > > the nyAyAmRta-Advaitasiddhi deliberations that I have attended in
> > Bangalore
> > > at the pUrNaprajnA samshodhana mandiram, no difference of opinion came
> > > about on the question on 'how samsara comes about'.
> > >
> > > When the various points mentioned in the foregoing are kept in mind there
> > > will hardly be any room for the kind of criticism purportedly made by Sri
> > > Vijayendra Tirtha.  And most importantly, anAdimAyA and  samsara are not
> > > within the gamut of logic.  However much one might try, one cannot
> > explain
> > > them logically.  That is why Advaita holds all this 'anirvachanIya'.
> > >
> > > Om Tat Sat
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Archives: http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/
> > > http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.culture.religion.advaita
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe or change your options:
> > > http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/advaita-l
> > >
> > > For assistance, contact:
> > > listmaster at advaita-vedanta.org
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Archives: http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/
> > http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.culture.religion.advaita
> >
> > To unsubscribe or change your options:
> > http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/advaita-l
> >
> > For assistance, contact:
> > listmaster at advaita-vedanta.org
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Archives: http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/
> http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.culture.religion.advaita
> 
> To unsubscribe or change your options:
> http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/advaita-l
> 
> For assistance, contact:
> listmaster at advaita-vedanta.org