[Advaita-l] Do not bring Sankhya into Suddha Sankara Advaita

[Venkatesh Murthy]

Namaste
On Mon, May 20, 2013 at 11:56 AM, V Subrahmanian
<v.subrahmanian at gmail.com>wrote:

> On Mon, May 20, 2013 at 10:41 AM, Venkatesh Murthy <vmurthy36 at gmail.com
> >wrote:
>
> > Namaste
> >
> > Sankara Vedanta is saying Avidya is natural for men. Naisargika.
>
>
> In the Br.Up. 1.4.10 bhashya Shankara establishes avidyA for Brahman (not
> jIva).
>
>
>
> > The Avidya is nothing but Adhyaasa. This is Superimposition of Self and
> > not Self. The Avidyaa is making us to imagine a Ishwara and His Maayaa
> > Shakti. The Maayaa Shakti is the cause of the World. This means the whole
> > World is imagined through Adhyaasa.
> >
>
> That one is kartA/bhoktA, sukhI, duHkhI, is what is imagined due to
> avidyA.  That there is Ishwara as the jagatkAraNam and it is His shakti
> that creates the world, that Ishwara is the karmaphaladAtA, etc. are never
> the imagination of the jIva.  It is shruti that gives / informs one on
> these concepts.
>
> That the entire samsaAra, bandha-mokSha vyavasthA, etc, is within mAyA is
> not disputed.  But to say that Ishwara, shruti, etc. are all jIvakalpanA
> has no basis in Advaita shAstra.  Shankara has, in more than one place,
> demonstrated that avidya is a viShaya for the jiva/aspirant, through
> dialogues, in the B G B and vehemently denies that avidyA is  subjective.
> It is on the reasoning that it is objective, vishaya, for the sAkshI that
> Shankara establishes that it (avidyA) is dRshya, mithya.   If it is
> subjective, it would never go.
>

Is Avidyaa SUBJECTIVE OR OBJECTIVE? Is Avidyaa Outside or Inside me?

In the Bhashya Adi Sankara 4- 1- 3 below is making clear statement Avidyaa
is SUBJECTIVE only. It belongs to person having Adhyaasa. If Avidyaa is
ONLY in person having Adhyaasa that person's Avidyaa Kalpita Ishwara and
Avidyaa Kalpitaa Maayaa Shakti are also there. If Avidyaa is SUBJECTIVE
Ishwara and His Maayaa are ALSO Subjective only. You can say Ishwara and
Maaya Shakti are known because of Sastra. But Sastra also is Avidyaa
Kalpita of person having Adhyaasa. Sastra is also imagined by that person.
In that Avidyaa Kalpita Sastra it is written there is a Ishwara and His
Maayaa. Ishwara becomes Avidyaa Kalpita of person with Adhyaasa only. His
Maayaa becomes Avidyaa Kalpitaa of person with Adhyaasa only.

Very Important Sankara Bhashya 4 -1 - 3 is saying Kasya Punarayam
Aprabodhaha ? Iti Cet Yastvam Prucchasi Tasya Te Iti Vadaamaha. Nanu Aham
Ishwara Evoktaha Shrutyaa. Yadyevam prati Buddho'si Naasti Kasyacid
Aprabodhaha.
'Objection - To Whom does this non-waking belong?
Answer - We reply 'To You who ask this question!'
Objection -  But Sruti teaches that I am Ishwara Himself.
Answer - If you are thus awakened Then non-waking belongs to none!' SSS
Swamijis book Sankara Vedanta Meemamsa Bhashya Page 73.

This above Bhashya is showing Adi Sankara thinks the Avidyaa that is
Adhyaasa is SUBJECTIVE. The Teekaakaaras have not understood his teaching
and they are teaching some OBJECTIVE Avidyaa attached to Brahma. That is
wrong.

If Sri SSS had studied the vivarana positions and understood them correctly
> (as shown above) he would not have mistaken it to be taking a sAnkhyan line
> and the 'bhAvarUpa' adjective really means: it does not have an independent
> reality/existence.
>
> Clarification Statement - Swamiji SSS is not saying Vivarana is taking a
Sankhyan line but I am saying that. I did not find his statement like this.
But he is saying Adi Sankara never teaches Objective Avidyaa and He never
teaches the Avidyaa is same as Ishwara's Maayaa also. He is against Bhaava
Roopa Avidyaa.



> What is paratantra satya is no different from the rope-snake.  The
> superimposed snake is said to 'exist' only on the basis of the
> existence/reality of the rope.  No one can give a non rope-snake example
> for the concept of  paratantra satya.  For, just like the rope is the
> sattAprada for the superimposed snake, Brahman is the sattAprada for the
> mAyA (and through it, to the entire world/jivas) which is a dependent
> tattva.  Any paratantrasatya entity is devoid of its own
> reality/existence:  'sva sattA shUnyatve sati anyasattA-adhInasattAkatvam
> paratantra satyatvam' is the comprehensive, crisp definition for the
> paratantra satyatvam.
>
> All systems admit only a dependent reality for the world/jivas.  It is only
> advaita that explicitly says they are mithyA.  The others do not say this
> for fear of becoming non-different from Advaita.
>
> regards
> subrahmanian.v
>
>
>
> >
> > Summary - Adi Sankara is saying Adhyaasa is responsible for Maayaa. Maaya
> > is Avidyaa Kalpitaa. Imagined through Ignorance. But Post Sankara
> > sub-commentators are saying Avidyaa and Maayaa are both same.
> >
> > Good and Bad parts of Maayaa are both imagined only. They are False.
> >
> >
> > On Mon, May 20, 2013 at 10:28 AM, <rajaramvenk at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Dear Sri Venkatesh,
> > >
> > > Please compile the references to the use of avidya and maya in the
> works
> > > of Gaudapada, Sankara and post Sankarite advaitins. It will help see
> > > objectively if there has been any change. IMO, Sankara uses maya in two
> > > connotations - a. positive -  the aisvara or daiva shakthi (e.g.
> > mayarupam,
> > > this divine maya) and b. negative - the crooked cause of illusion (e.g.
> > > kutastha). He uses avidya as synonymous with the latter use of maya.
> > >
> > > Best Regards
> > > Rajaram Venkataramani
> > > Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Venkatesh Murthy <vmurthy36 at gmail.com>
> > > Sender: advaita-l-bounces at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
> > > Date: Mon, 20 May 2013 10:03:39
> > > To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta<
> > > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> > > Reply-To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta
> > >         <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> > > Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Do not bring Sankhya into Suddha Sankara
> Advaita
> > >
> > > Namaste
> > >
> > > Page 42 Essays on Vedanta -
> > >
> > > 'In the face of the above unmistakable definitions of both Avidya and
> > Maya
> > > the sub- commentaries on Sankara Bhashya have started a procession of
> the
> > > blind led by the blind in emphatically affirming the identity of both
> > > Avidya and Maya and defining Avidya not as subjective ignorance but as
> > > something objective clinging to Atman and thus distorting his nature by
> > > converting the all-pure Brahman into a transmigratory soul by
> enveloping
> > > his essential nature'.
> > >
> > > Page 45 -
> > > 'Ramanujacharya for instance confounds Sankara's teaching of Avidya and
> > > Maya with the Post Sankara theory of Avidya and with the Maya doctrine
> of
> > > the Buddhists. He has considerably exercised himself in undertaking an
> > > elaborate refutation of the Avidya Theory and in calling Advaitins
> > > opprobriously 'Pracchanna Mayavadins' (Crypto Buddhists).And Dr. Murti
> > has
> > > these remarks with regard to Sankara and Gaudapada -
> > > 'Gaudapada and Sankara merely bring out the implications of this
> > standpoint
> > > (of the older Vedantins) when they declare change, difference and
> > plurality
> > > as illusory; they formulate the complementary doctrine of Avidya to
> > explain
> > > the appearance of difference'. C.P.B. Page 122
> > >
> > >
> > > Regards
> > >
> > > -Venkatesh
> > > _______________________________________________
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> >
> > --
> > Regards
> >
> > -Venkatesh
> > _______________________________________________
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-- 
Regards

-Venkatesh