[Advaita-l] Who Slept Very Well? - Part IV

[H S Chandramouli]

HS Chandramouli

On a further consideration of the issue i thought my earlier statement
needs to be corrected. No doubt as Sri Nitinji has mentioned there could be
different ways of explaining the same concept in different ways depending
upon the temperments of students.For example jiva itself is conceived in
different ways as in avacheda vada/abhasa vada/pratibimba vada. Sri
Sureswaracharya when asked about his preference in regard to this is
reported to have said that any of them could be followed depending upon the
sadhka's temperment as long as the same goal is reached. But in these cases
none of them considered the other views as bhashya virudha. This then is
the  issue in the current context. Sri SSS is very emphatic that all the
other traditional schools of thought are Bhashya Virudha and goes so far as
to state that they are against the very tenets and spirit of the bhashyas.
Therein lies the problem.

Regasrds


On Sun, Feb 23, 2014 at 3:25 PM, H S Chandramouli
<hschandramouli at gmail.com>wrote:

> I entirely agree with you Nitinji.
>
> Regards
>
> chandramouli
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 22, 2014 at 8:45 PM, Nithin Sridhar <sridhar.nithin at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Thank you for elaborate reply. In my opinion at the outset all these
>> differences appear only a difference of approach. Different acharyas have
>> explained same concept in different way according to temperaments of
>> students! Hence at least as far as I am concerned these differences in
>> details is of interest only to those who dive deep in tarka.
>> -Nithin
>> On Feb 22, 2014 4:08 PM, "H S Chandramouli" <hschandramouli at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > HS CHANDRAMOULI
>> >
>> > Dear Sri Nitiji and Sri Ramesh Vemuriji,
>> >
>> > << I would also be interested to know the major points of dispute
>> between
>> > Sri
>> > Sachidanandendra Saraswathi and the others. >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Based on the contents of the booklet moolavidya vimarshana, I have
>> tried to
>> > summarize the main issues of contention between the traditional (
>> > vivarana/bhamati as applicable ) and Sri SSSjis views.
>> >
>> > 1. Issue  << Is bhavarupa moolavidya which is the  cause for samsara
>> > consistent with Sri Bhagavatpada Sidhanta or not >> . According to
>> > traditional views, bhavarupa moolavidya as  the root cause ( moola
>> karana )
>> > for all samsara is entirely consistent with sidhanta. But according to
>> Sri
>> > SSS , based on adhyasa bhashya , mutual adhyasa between atma and anatma
>> is
>> > called avidya and this is the root cause ( moola karana )  for all
>> secular
>> > and vedic vyavahara , and bringingin  moolavidya as the karana vastu
>> even
>> > for this avidya is contrary to the Bhashya.
>> >
>> > 2. Sushupti. According to traditional views ajnana which is the cause
>> for
>> > bandha is present in sushupti. But according to Sri SSS there is neither
>> > avidya nor adhyasa  separate from the atman in sushupti.
>> >
>> > 3.  Traditional view considers moolavidya both as moola karana for
>> samsara
>> > ( as avidya ) as well as the seed  for Creation ( as avyakta or
>> avyakruta
>> > or maya ) . Sri SSS maitains that avidya is mithya jnana which is
>> removed
>> > by jnana ( as per adhyasa bhashya ) whereas maya is the seed  for avidya
>> > kalpitha namarupa Creation ( as per BS 2-1-14 ) . Also in BS 1-4-3,
>> since
>> > Sri Bhagavatpada  has  interpreted avyakta  as maya on the one hand and
>>  as
>> > avidya on the other separately, the interpretation should be that
>> avidya is
>> > in the realm of jnana whereas maya is in the realm of object ( jneya )
>> and
>> > therefore the conclusion is avidya is the seed ( nimitta ) for samsara
>> > while avyakta is the seed ( upadana karana ) for Creation.So the two,
>> > avidya and avyakta , should not be clubbed together as a single entity
>> > moolavidya.
>> >
>> > There are other differences also in specific portions of the Bhashya.
>> But
>> > as per my understanding they all in one way or the other traceable to
>> these
>> > fundamental issues. Sri SSS has advanced several Bhashya/shruti vakyas
>> in
>> > support of his contention. In fact he goes so far as to state that the
>> > traditional views ( both vivarana and bhamati ) have not even understood
>> > the spirit of the Bhagavatpada Sidhanta at all and have gone against
>> it. He
>> > also maintains that with those views many arguments advanced by the
>> > dvaitins ( both vishishtadvaita and Madhwa sidhanta ) cannot be negated.
>> >
>> > I have tried to present the issues to the best of my ability. As Sri
>> > Bhaskarji has mentioned, for a serious study of the views of Sri SSS one
>> > needs to refer to the works of Sri SSS mentioned by him in his post. I
>> hope
>> > this will be of some value to those who just want to understand the
>> basic
>> > issues involved.
>> >
>> > Regards
>> >
>> >
>> > On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 9:45 AM, kuntimaddi sadananda <
>> > kuntimaddisada at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > > Continuation as Part IV
>> > > -------------------------------------
>> > >
>> > > Deep-Sleep State:
>> > >
>> > > When we go to deep sleep state, we start withdrawing each of the
>> koshas,
>> > > one by one, with the desire or thought of going to deep-sleep state.
>> 'I
>> > > want to sleep' thought forms contents of the vijnana maya kosha or the
>> > > intellect, when it goes to sleep or when it goes into an unmanifested
>> > > state.  In the process of sleeping, there is a withdrawal of each of
>> the
>> > > grosser koshas into the subtler one - that annamya kosha to pranamaya
>> > > kosha, pranamaya to manomaya, manomaya to vijnaana maya.  At the time
>> of
>> > > sleep, the vijnaana maya or the intellectual sheath becomes
>> unmanifested
>> > > state with all the koshas as part of its ingredients, but in
>> > > undifferentiated form. That unmanifested state of intellectual sheath
>> > with
>> > > all its constituent koshas is now called anandamaya kosha, since
>> there is
>> > > absence of any discriminative thoughts, and associated relationships,
>> > other
>> > > than the homogeneous thought of ignorance or avidya. This is referred
>> to
>> > as
>> > > avidya vRitti.  It is
>> > >  in a sense an experience involving the knowledge of the absence of
>> > > anything and everything.  Hence Mandukya says - na kinchana kaamam
>> > > kaamayata - there is absence of desire for any object since there is
>> no
>> > > perception or recognition of any particular object of any kind in that
>> > > unmanifested state.
>> > >
>> > > Along with the ignorance, there is an experience of happiness as the
>> > > absence of any duality that involves all relationships. In essence,
>> all
>> > > human suffering comes from the notional relationships and ownerships
>> that
>> > > arise due to individual raaga and dweshaas or likes and dislikes.
>> Hence
>> > it
>> > > is happiness born out of absence of suffering.  It is still a
>> reflected
>> > > happiness or consciousness since reflection by the homogenous
>> ignorance
>> > > thought or avidyaa vRitti. Tai. Up classifies the degree of happiness
>> in
>> > > the anandamaya kosha in terms of moda, pramoda, etc. The very
>> > > classification implies it is not an absolute happiness but only
>> reflected
>> > > happiness as in waking and dream states.
>> > >
>> > > Hence it is ananda mayam, and it is kosha since there is inherent
>> > > identification with the Vijnaanamaya now in potential or unmanifested
>> > > form.  It is now in its pure existential form since there is no
>> apparent
>> > > duality or plurality.  Pure existence is nothing but Brahman. Hence,
>> one
>> > > can say that it is Brahman in the form of ananda maya kosha exists in
>> the
>> > > deep sleep state. Identification with the vijnana maya kosha is now
>> > shifted
>> > > to the identification with anandamaya kosha.  The experience of 'I
>> slept
>> > > well' involves both the existence (sat aspect of Brahman) as well as
>> the
>> > > bliss or ananda aspect of Brahman.
>> > >
>> > > In essence, this sequence of withdrawal of grosser koshas to the finer
>> > > ones up to the anandamaya kosha is called going into deep sleep state.
>> > > Since there are no two thoughts to differentiate from the other, and
>> > there
>> > > is just an experience of a single homogenous thought of ignorance
>> called
>> > > avidya vRitti, there is no concept of space and time. Time arises as a
>> > gap
>> > > between two sequential thoughts and movement in time is space; and
>> both
>> > are
>> > > absent in deep-sleep state.
>> > >
>> > > What is there in deep sleep state is only an undifferentiable
>> homogeneous
>> > > thought that started originally a thought as 'I want to sleep'. The
>> > > knowledge also in aananda maya kosha, which is nothing but vijnanamaya
>> > > kosha in potential form or unmanifested form, occurs also
>> spontaneously
>> > as
>> > > the all-pervading consciousness or sAkshI illumines this anandamaya
>> kosha
>> > > with the avidyaa vRitti. Although we can say that aanandamya kosha
>> acts
>> > as
>> > > a knower and the known is the absence of everything or avidya vRitti,
>> it
>> > is
>> > > unlike the knowledge in the waking state where the knower and known
>> > duality
>> > > involves distinct pramANa or means of knowledge resulting in tripuTi
>> or
>> > > triad mentioned earlier. In the deep-sleep state the consciousness
>> > > reflected in the anandamaya kosha as chidAbhAsa acts as the subject
>> > knower
>> > > and the thought of ignorance as avidya vRitti forms the object of
>> > > knowledge.  Since avidyaa vRitti involves homogenious undifferented
>> > > ignorance of everything,
>> > >  the reflected consciousness only illumines this ignorance as object
>> of
>> > > knowledge. The knower is the enlivening ananda mayakosha which is
>> nothing
>> > > but vijnaanamaya kosha with all its components (other koshes) in
>> > > undifferentiated potential form. Hence in deep sleep there are three
>> > > factors, a) vijnaanamaya kosha in potential form as anandamaya kosha,
>> b)
>> > > the reflected consciousness, chidAbhAsa reflected in this anandamaya
>> > kosha
>> > > c) undifferented homogenious ignorance as vRitti.
>> > >
>> > > When one awakes from deep sleep state (due to pressure of vaasanaas)
>> the
>> > > unfolding of the koshas occur in reverse order with vijnaana maya
>> kosha
>> > > taking its manifested form, with unfolding of each of the koshas,
>> first
>> > the
>> > > manomaya and then praana maya  and then annamaya koshas. The knower
>> > -known
>> > > dualily in the potential form is now unfolded where the knower is the
>> > > vijnaana maya kosha and known is the homogeneous ignorance of
>> everything.
>> > > Hence when the mind (vijaanamyaka kosha) says I slept well implies
>> that I
>> > > was there in potential form and I did not know anything expressing
>> both
>> > > experiences one as my existence as I was there to sleep well, and the
>> > other
>> > > is my ignorance while I was in that state. I being referred to here is
>> > > again the unholy combination of the pure consciousness with the
>> > anandamaya
>> > > kosha or unfolded vijnaanamaya kosha.  One can also say that
>> ahankaara in
>> > > the potential form slept very well since as we mentioned that
>> ahankaara
>> > is
>> > >  identification of I am with this - this here being the anandamaya
>> kosha.
>> > > Thus, upahita chaitanya (RC or reflected consciousness) identifying
>> with
>> > > the upAdhi as ahankaara jiiva slept very well and did not know
>> anything
>> > in
>> > > the deep-sleep state.  As we mentioned before, the pure all-pervading
>> > > consciousness has nothing to do with waking, dreaming or deep-sleeping
>> > > states. It is the witnessing consciousness that is every shining
>> > principle
>> > > without any duality whatsoever.  Hence even the deep-sleep state is
>> also
>> > > from vyavahaara point only, as declared by Mandukya in mantra 7 as
>> > turIyam
>> > > as na prajnaana ghanam.  Since the experience in deep-sleep state
>> > involves
>> > > absence of all dualities, it is an experience of non-duality but
>> without
>> > > any knowledge of the absolute truth of advaita.  Here I am
>> > differentiating
>> > > non-duality from the advaita and the reason is advaita knowledge
>> involves
>> > > knowledge of non-duality, in spite of apparent duality, whereas the in
>> > the
>> > >  deep-sleep state there is only the absence of duality and knowledge
>> of
>> > > the ignorance.  Thus advaitic understanding differs from just the
>> > > experience of non-duality. This aspect is very important since many
>> want
>> > to
>> > > experience non-duality as the goal of self-realization. What is
>> required
>> > is
>> > > the knowledge of the absoluteness of the self that is aham brahmaasmi
>> or
>> > I
>> > > am the infiniteness. That knowledge has to take place with the mind
>> and
>> > in
>> > > the mind only. Hence, the advice of the scriptures is to approach a
>> > teacher
>> > > for this knowledge.
>> > >
>> > > Analysis of our deep sleep experience should provide us many aspects
>> for
>> > a
>> > > keen Vedantic student.
>> > >
>> > > 1.    It is an advaitic experience without knowledge of the absolute
>> > truth
>> > > - indicating that self-realization does not involve an experience of
>> > > non-duality by shunning or shutting of the mind, since we are
>> > experiencing
>> > > this all the time when we go to deep sleep state. No one gets up from
>> > > deep-sleep with advaitic knowledge or with self-realization.
>> > >
>> > > 2.    Self-realization therefore involves clear understanding of my
>> > > advaitic nature irrespective of the presence or absence of duality.
>> That
>> > > understanding comes only with the mind which is ready to learn via
>> > > shravana, manana and nidhidhyaasana that scriptures prescribe. That is
>> > > listening to the scriptures under a competent teacher who himself has
>> > > learned this from his teacher, and reflecting on the teaching until
>> there
>> > > are no more doubts and contemplating on the teaching until one
>> recognizes
>> > > all the time I am that pure existent consciousness, one without a
>> second.
>> > >
>> > > 3.    In the deep sleep state, jnaani sleeps as jnaani and ajnaani
>> sleeps
>> > > as ajnaani. This is because the mind that has the knowledge or
>> ignorance
>> > of
>> > > one's true nature is folded with its knowledge to be in potential
>> form.
>> > > Hence jnaanam or ajnaanam of oneself is in potential form in the
>> > anandamaya
>> > > kosha.
>> > >
>> > > 4.    The knowledge including the self-knowledge occurs in or with the
>> > > upahita chaitanya or reflected consciousness, reflected in the
>> vijnaamaya
>> > > kosha. Hence viveka or discriminative intellect becomes important tool
>> > > along with shraddhaa or faith in the teaching as emphasized by Lord
>> > Krishna
>> > > as - shraddhaavan labhate jnaanam.
>> > >
>> > > 5.  There are several misconceptions about deep-sleep state in the
>> > > literature. See for example the discussion between Shree Ananda wood
>> and
>> > > Shree Dennis relating to Shree Atmanandaji account of deep-sleep
>> state.
>> > The
>> > > discussion can be found at
>> > > http://www.advaita.org.uk/discourses/atmananda/atmananda4f.htm
>> > > It appears from the discussion deep-sleep is being described somewhat
>> > > similar to turIyam while in fact in the description of turIyam the
>> > > scripture negates the deep-sleep state as part of mithyaa only. The
>> > > confusion can be due to the misunderstanding that pure consciousness
>> > > involves objectless awareness as the description indicates. Even if
>> one
>> > > takes that operational definition, the deep sleep state is not
>> objectless
>> > > awareness. In deep sleep state we are aware of the homogeneous
>> ignorance
>> > > just as stated above with example of pitch dark room where we are
>> aware
>> > of
>> > > objectless-ness.  In both pitch dark room and in deep sleep state we
>> have
>> > > an object for awareness; darkness in the pitch dark room and
>> ignorance in
>> > > the deep-sleep state. For that reason only we can say - I do not see
>> or
>> > > know anything there in the pitch dark room or in the deep-sleep state.
>> > > Absence of non-existence of an object or objects is knowledge stated
>> as
>> > > anupalabdi pramANa. As a final
>> > >  note again - self-realization does not necessarily involves
>> objectless
>> > > awareness but recognition that I am awareness with or without
>> thoughts or
>> > > vRittis or object-thoughts. Hence, advaitic knowledge involves
>> > recognition
>> > > that I am pure existence-consciousness-limitless with or without the
>> > world
>> > > of plurality present since the plurality that is present is only
>> mithyaa
>> > > and therefore cannot disturb my advaitic state.
>> > >
>> > > Hari Om!
>> > > Sadananda
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
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