[Advaita-l] Creation & Creator

[Bhaskar YR via Advaita-l]

praNAms Sri Chandramouli prabhuji
Hare Krishna
I will take up your observations in a slightly different order.

Ø   I welcome your different perspective on this issue prabhuji.  Since I myself  not clear about this, I am always open for correction.
 Reg  <<  And more importantly,  problem comes only when we say jnAna would bring complete annihilation of this particular jeeva, the jeeva that is realized that it is akatru, abhOktru…jnAna neither creates anything afresh nor has the capacity to destroy anything that already exists. >>.
 Jiva is defined as a combination of Consciousness,antahkarana and abhasa ( one of different definitions ) . Jnana means cessation  of jivatva which is due to abhasa which is not a vastu. .

Ø     I agree with this prabhuji.  Jeevatva is due to kevala upAdhi saMbandha, it is only like tala malinatvAdi parikalpitaM clarifies shankara in sUtra bhAshya.  ekO hi pratyagAtmA bhavati, na dvau pratyagAtmAnau sambhavataH…Here also ‘wave’ which is kevala upAdhi of the SAME water and this ‘wave’ could realize that there is no ‘wave’ as such apart from water and what is there ultimately is WATER only not ‘wave’.  Is it not the realization of that ‘wave’ prabhuji??
I am specifically avoiding the use of the word annihilation because it is normally associated with vastus ( which is not the case here ) and interferes in the proper understanding of the issue. Jivatva is a cognition and not a vastu and hence can be negated / sublated ( another word instead f annihilation ) by jnana

Ø     Yes, it’s me who used this annihilation since you implied that after jnAna there will be an absolute absence of jeevatva or jeevabhAva or jeeva chaitanya.  Had the word ‘sublation’ used instead of total absence, I would have avoided the word ‘annihilation’ ☺ Anyway let that be aside prabhuji.  Now we shall come back to the subject :
. It is also borneout by the fact that in jivanmukta concept antahkarana which is a vastu continues to exist  even after jnana and is not destroyed by it.

Ø     So prabhuji, you are agreeing jnAni’s antaHkaraNa exists even after jnAna and jnAna cannot destroy the antaHkaraNa (upAdhi).  Now can I say it is as good as saying ‘wave’ would remain intact even after ‘wave’ realizing that ‘wave’ is nothing but water, and wave is not a separate entity apart from water ??
But then what about the status of  antahkarana portion of the jiva ?  The jiva ( which is the one subject to transmigration ) is said to get final liberation from such transmigration on the destruction of all the three , sthula/sukshma/karana , shariras at the time of death after the expiation of prarabdha. Disposal of sthula sharira is well known. The components of the sukshma/karana shariras resolve into their respective Primal Elements here itself without any transmigration as for example in the case of upasakas. Thus jnana does not destroy them.

Ø   Fine prabhuji.  I completely agree with you.

<<  how can we say ‘HIS’ BMI continue to function in a particular manner due to prArabdha or otherwise?? >>. ‘

HIS’ is only from the standpoint of the others. ‘THE’ BMI continues to function …… is the correct position.

Ø  But as I said earlier BMI can not continue function on its own without the driven force of chaitanya. Those who see the BMI of jnAni would see the ‘action / acitivity’ of that BMI as well which is quite normal as any other alive human activity.  guNa guNeshu vartante, svabhAvastu pravartate says Krishna in geeta…but is this without chaitanya aspect in it?? I don’t think so prabhuji.

<< what goes in that wave is the notion that it is only wave having the separate existence apart from water. >> .

 No. The wave no longer exists for it to lose any notion about itself.

Ø   But you said above, antaHkaraNa (nAma rUpa upAdhi) would not get destroyed after the jnAna..that means wave (upAdhi) exist but notion of this wave’s ‘waviness’ which is separate from water would get negated / sublated.  Is it not?

<< Except  for the  apAntaratamas  reincarnating as vyAsa etc. , the rest of your post refers to Jivanmukta state .
 This example given by shankara, would imply that there are anatha jeeva-s and some jeeva-s would get svarUpa jnAna and even after shedding their previous bhautika shareera, remain in some place with their jeeva (individuality) intact.  And if paramAtma wishes and if paramAtma orders to go back to bhUlOka, they would come back to teach brahma jnAna to the mortals like us.  This would clearly shows that there will be asaMkhyAta jeeva-s and out of those asaMkhyAta jeeva-s some would have special privilege to come back to matsya lOka for the uddhAra of other ajnAni jeeva-s. >>.

Referring to the response in the first para, it has been said that the sukshma sharira / karana sharira which form part of the transmigratory soul exist till the prarabdha karma lasts. This normally is till the fall/death of the current body. However in the case of special “ persons “ like apAntaratamas , based on the assertion by shastras/bhashya , it has to be conceded that their prarabdha karma ( which is accomplishment of a mission as per the bhashya ) is not exhausted on the fall of the current body, but extends to other bodies to be takenup in future also.

Ø    What does it mean by special persons here?? When there is absolutely no notion of jeevatva after realization??  If there is no multiple jeeva-s what for these special person should keep their prArabdha in balance??  And how paramAtma (??) can instruct these special persons to go back to the place to do AtmOddhAra work??  Does it not imply that there are three divisions in jeeva-s i.e. paramAtma (who is the instructor) and special jeeva-s ( messengers of paramAtma) and loukika-s (ordinary ajnAni mortals who are in need of jnAna)??  We cannot say this is only in vyavahAra because of the fact that these special characters are samyak jnAni-s or varishTa-s of jnAna who are waiting for the orders of paramAtma.  And for the samyak jnAni-s and paramAtma there cannot be any vyavahAra.

Therefore the sukshma/karana shariras do not get resolved into the Primal Elements at the fall of the current body , but only after their mission is accomplished.

Ø     Again, who are these special characters??  What mission they have to accomplish when for them there is absolutely no jeevatva.

This is clear from the bhashya which repeatedly states  “ and hence though they are possessed of full vision, leading to liberation, they continue in their bodies so long as their missions demand this and so long as their actions are not completed ; and when that is fulfilled they become freed “ . ( translation of BSB 3-3-32 by Swami Gambhirananda ).

Ø     Though they ae possessed of full vision (samyak jnAna) i.e. paramArtha jnAna, the jeevatva in some special persons would not go away it is because they are specially privileged to obey the order of paramAtma.  And more importantly, even after the samyak jnAna there is a difference between paramAtma and special jeeva-s (apAntaratamas) who work for the another set of ajnAni jeeva-s..Dont you get this conclusion from shankara bhAshya here prabhuji??

Till the acquisition of the next body/bodies , it is to be assumed on the basis of shastra/bhashya that this sukshma/karana sharira obtains in Maya itself without any transmigration as jnana has been obtained earlier.

Ø   Without special identification of special persons, we cannot say there are some special set of jeeva-s meant for teaching…And the point here is even after obtaining jnAna, some special persons would retain their sUkshma / kAraNa shareera to obey the orders of paramAtma, who is again a separate instructing master to these special characters.  Does it not imply the multiplicity of jeeva-s even after full vision??
 There is nothing in the bhashya which leads to the conclusion mentioned by you above about ananta jivas .

Ø     Surprising prabhuji.  As I explained above, it definitely implies that there are paramAtma, specially privileged jeeva-s and yet to be realized jeeva-s. As you know saMhita mantra says : shataM sahasramayutaM nyarbudamasankhyeyaM svamasmin nivishtaM..If that is not the case, there is absolutely no necessity to mention about samyak jnAni-s, paramAtma and ajnAni jeeva-s in sUtra bhAshya.

Also , the jivas cannot remain in “ some place “ of Maya ( as Maya is jada and jiva is chaitanya swarupam ) nor can it remain in “ some place “ in Brahman as there is no scope for it in advaita sidhanta. Even  “ locating “ one Maya in Brahman has invited so much of criticism from all quarters, but to accommodate an infinite number of jivas in it …hmmm it is a definite NO NO.

Ø   If there is no multiple waves, no need for a particular realized wave to teach other unrealized waves…And there is no need for shankara to attribute anantatva to adhyAsa if there are no striving jeeva-s for brahma jnAna.

The above is my understanding of the issue. It is based only on a very limited knowledge that I have been able to gather so far and hence I cannot vouchsafe for its authenticity. For that it is over to more knowledgeable and experienced experts who can throw light on this issue with authority.

Ø   Yes, what I said above is my understanding only prabhuji.  I must admit here that nowhere Sri SSS  has discussed these issues in detail.  And my stand on seeming multiple jeeva-s is not supported by Sri SSS either in his works.
Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
bhaskar

Regards

On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 6:00 PM, Bhaskar YR <bhaskar.yr at in.abb.com<mailto:bhaskar.yr at in.abb.com>> wrote:
praNAms Sri Chandramouli prabhuji
Hare Krishna
 Except  for the  apAntaratamas  reincarnating as vyAsa etc. , the rest of your post refers to Jivanmukta state .

>     This example given by shankara, would imply that there are anatha jeeva-s and some jeeva-s would get svarUpa jnAna and even after shedding their previous bhautika shareera, remain in some place with their jeeva (individuality) intact.  And if paramAtma wishes and if paramAtma orders to go back to bhUlOka, they would come back to teach brahma jnAna to the mortals like us.  This would clearly shows that there will be asaMkhyAta jeeva-s and out of those asaMkhyAta jeeva-s some would have special privilege to come back to matsya lOka for the uddhAra of other ajnAni jeeva-s.
From the viewpoint of others ( other than the Jivanmukta ) it does appear that the same Jiva continues to function. However from the point of view of the Jivanmukta himself , the assertion by the Shrutis that  Kartrtva ceases only means the individual “ waviness “ is lost.

>     Yes, it will be only absence of  katrutva, bhOktruva bhAva or bAdha of triputi vyAvahAra and it is not an absolute annihilation of jeeva.  As per the analogy, the wave would not go anywhere after realizing that it is only WATER..what goes in that wave is the notion that it is only wave having the separate existence apart from water.
The physical body then continues to function driven by prarabdha/vasanas  which means driven by the mind itself which has been trained to function in a particular manner due to prior sadhanas.

>     My question is rather doubt is who can that particular mind can function without the association of that parichinna chaitanya which is restricted to that particular BMI??  jnAni, after realization no more parichinna, he is akhada only..under these circumstance how can we say ‘HIS’ BMI continue to function in a particular manner due to prArabdha or otherwise??
I understand it to be like a Robot let loose after due programming ( no doubt a crude analogy , but helps me in understanding ) .  That is how the “ person “ can continue teaching others while being devoid of a sense of kattrtva.

>     As I said above, if we are talking about mere katrutva / bhOktrutva abhAva in the jnAni then we donot have any disagreements..And continuation of teaching with the absence of katrutva would imply that there is a jeeva without katrutva, and it is teaching the knowledge of that akrutatvaM to another jeeva, which is still suffering from that katrutva & bhOktrutva bhAva!!  And more importantly,  problem comes only when we say jnAna would bring complete annihilation of this particular jeeva, the jeeva that is realized that it is akatru, abhOktru…jnAna neither creates anything afresh nor has the capacity to destroy anything that already exists.  It only reminds us what is there in reality.  jnApakaM hi shAstraM na tu kArakaM says shankara.
Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
bhaskar


This practically answers all your points except apAntaratamas which perhaps we could consider separately.

Regards

On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 3:20 PM, Bhaskar YR <bhaskar.yr at in.abb.com<mailto:bhaskar.yr at in.abb.com>> wrote:
 praNAms Sri Chandramouli prabhuji
Hare Krishna
I forgot to consider this analogy in my response. In this analogy Realization would not consist in the wave realizing its nature /swarupa as WATER while it is still a wave.

>     If there is absolute absence of (individual) waviness, how can one realized wave can teach the knowledge of ‘WATER’ to another wave??
Realization would be what happens to it when it reaches the shore and recedes back into the ocean. It loses its individuality/distinctness from the ocean which in any case it always was.

>     So, there is no question of ‘alive’ wave which is capable of teaching the knowledge of ONLY WATER to other yet to be realized waves!!??  IOW, no alive absolute brahma jnAni we can find to have the teaching of brahma jnAna.
There is no wave after that ( the particular wave under consideration ) . The Jiva does not “ Realize “ while still a Jiva, the  Jivahood / sense of being a Jiva resolves into Brahman indistinguishably which is called Realization. There is no Jiva after that ( the particular Jiva under consideration ) . The state can perhaps only be intuitively understood and may not be capable of being defined further . At least that is what I think.

>  I agree with you that we cannot grab this realization through vAk & manas…But if we study the words of realized Acharya-s, it seems that ‘waviness’ would continue to remain even after realizing that that particular wave is nothing but water and even after shedding this individuality, sometimes as per the order of WATER (paramAtma) these subsided waves would comeback again to WATER as ‘waves’ to teach the other waves that they are nothing but water…(apAntaratama-s reincarnating as vyAsa etc.).  From this is there any problem in saying individuality remain but not real and what is real is ONLY WATER ??
Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
bhaskar