[Advaita-l] 'world' is not the mental creation of tiny soul !!

[Venkatesh Murthy]

Namaste
On Mon, Mar 24, 2014 at 10:19 PM, kuntimaddi sadananda <
kuntimaddisada at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Chandramouli and Subhanuji - PraNAms
>
> Is world mental creation of tiny soul - No.
>
Kindly examine the question. The words 'world', 'mental creation' and 'tiny
soul' are because of Avidyaa only. In Paramaartha there is no world, there
is no mental creation and there is no tiny soul also. What you are saying
tiny soul is the great Brahma. Jeevo Brahmaiva Naaparaha.

This tiny Jeeva does not know he is great Brahma because of Avidyaa. But he
is the Creator of the World. He does not know that because of Avidyaa. The
example given in Dakshinamurthy Stotra is this. In a dream Jeeva thinks the
dream objects are outside him and different from him. He thinks the dream
objects have Independent Reality from him. But the Reality is he has
created dream objects and they are ALL Inside Him, not outside. Like this
in Waking also Jeeva has created All objects and he is interacting with
them thinking they are Outside. But they are all inside Him. They are in
his Mental Creation. He is the Creator.



>
>  When we use the word tiny - automatically we have given a realty to the
> jiiva and tiny jiiva cannot create the entire universe with the rest of the
> beings (jiivas in it).. Once a tiny jiiva is identified by very exclusion
>  other tiny jiivas which are infinite of them are also get solidified along
> with Iswara, who has maayaa as sum total of all the vaasanaas of all tiny
> jiivas put together.
>

There are no other tiny soul. There is only one Jeeva and he is the
Inquirer.



>
> Let us the same question about the dream world of creation.
>
> Is dream world mental creation of the dream subject. No it is the creation
> of the waker's mind which pervades the whole dream world that includes all
> the jiivas, jagat and Iswara. The scriptural statement is after creation he
> entered into - upavishati. Who enters into what? Iswara after creation as
> though enters into the localized jiiva. Which jiiva? In principle, life is
> pulsating all jiivas and each jiiva has to interact in that frame of
> reality with all other jiivas in that world. If there is a eka jiiva then
> aneka jiivas also get solidified. You can not have one tiny jiiva and
> ignore other tiny jiivas that are  there that this tiny jiiva is
> transacting.
>
Other tiny souls are Mental Creations of one Jeeva only. All Transactions
with the Creator Jeeva are happening in His Mental Creation of World only
Just like in the dream the Jeeva will transact with other Jeevas. If you
dream you gave me Rs 1000 in your dream you will expect it back in your
dream. I will give it back to you in the dream. The Transacation is
completed in the dream only. But I was not actually there in your dream. I
did not actually take Rs 1000 from you.

 Aneka Jeeva Vaada is for less intelligent people.



>
> The problem I find is shifting from micro to macro since creation is macro
> while jiiva notion is by the tiny statement is localized. Jiiiva has his
> own tiny creation which results in samsara since he superimposes his raga
> and dveshaas on the Iswara's creation.
>
This is Aneka Jeeva Vaada. But in Eka Jeeva Vaada he has created Ishwara
also.

One test for Jeeva's Creation of Ishwara is like this. When you are awake
you will say Ishwara is controlling everything. In dream also you will obey
Ishwara's rules. But in dreamless sleep there is no World and No Ishwara.
If Ishwara and his rules are not Created by you they should be there in
Sushupti. But they are not there. This is proving you have Created Ishwara
in Waking and Dream.



>
> Hence the best way is we do have jiiva-jagat-Iswara as long as jiiva
> notion is there. and with knowledge we shift to aatma-anaatma diad and the
> whole question of ignorance get sublimated. The creation becomes vibhuti of
> the aatma.
>
> My 2c.
>
> Hari Om!
> Sadananda
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Mon, 3/24/14, H S Chandramouli <hschandramouli at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>  Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] 'world' is not the mental creation of tiny soul
> !!
>  To: "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta" <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
>  Date: Monday, March 24, 2014, 11:36 AM
>
>  Since there has been no response so
>  far to the post by Sri Subhanuji, I
>  thought I would just make a simple point without entering
>  into the question
>  and answer themselves. The whole point arises because Sri
>  SSS is critical
>  of mulavidya approach and advances the adhyasa approach. In
>  the process he
>  maintains that with the elimination of adhyasa by knowledge,
>  realization is
>  attained. How then can one go about deliberating on this
>  subject unless one
>  knows whose avidya is to be eliminated ? Surely one cannot
>  do so by
>  considering adhyasa and knowledge as some external elements
>  unconnected
>  with the inquirer. The question cannot be shied away from by
>  maintaining
>  that the question is not relevant. In fact It is the only
>  relevant question
>  apart from the solution to the same.
>
>  On the observation about Sri Bhagavatpada's " frustratingly
>  evasive
>  answers" , will await response from the original questioners
>  in this thread
>  before offering my own views.
>
>  Regards
>
>
>  On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 10:53 PM, subhanu <subhanu at hotmail.com>
>  wrote:
>
>  > V Subramanian wrote:“Where, in whom, does this
>  AtmAjnAnAtatA [//“api tu
>  > ajñātātmaiva kāraṇam ityasmākam abhyupagamah “
>  ,//
>  > inhere as per SriSwamiji? remains to be answered.
>  Is it Brahman that has
>  > the AtmAjnAtatA or the jIva?
>  > Has sri Swamiji said anything on this?
>  > From what I understandfrom the quotes given by you
>  here, Sri SSS is
>  > non-committal on that. “ And“I would like scholars
>  to comment on the
>  > samAsa (ajnAtAtmA) shown above and offer other
>  possibilities too to make
>  > the understanding firm.” Namaste, I would like to
>  throw some light on the
>  > comments and questions above:1)
>     We can see Sri Swamiji’s view from his
>  > comments in Māṇḍūkya Rahasya Vivrittih 1.2
>  section 24 ajnātam brahma khalu
>  > sabῑjam brahmochyate,  Brahman unknown is
>  falsely imagined to be Brahman
>  > with causative seed. This is in keeping with Suresvara
>  ajnātāmaikasamsiddha
>  > bῑjāvastham idam jagat [BUBV 1.4.191]-This world
>  appears to have the
>  > “state” of seed causality because atman is not
>  known. As has already been
>  > mentioned by others on the list, duality is falsely
>  imagined [kalpitam
>  > prasajed dvaitam at BUBV 5.1.31]. Sri HS Chandramouli
>  sent me a Kannada
>  > phrase from one of Sri Swamiji’s works where he
>  explicitly states he does
>  > not support the view that the jiva “creates” the
>  world2)     With regards
>  > to where/in whom is ajnātātmatā, Sri Swamiji
>  strictly follows Shankara and
>  > Suresvara. VPP section 223 (section 225 in Alston’s
>  English translation)
>  > has: avidyā jñātur eva na jñeyasya,
>  ātmano’apyajnānāshrayatvam ajnānādeva
>  > nānyathā ityetat bhāṣya-vārtikayoh spaṣṭam:
>  “Ignorance has its seat in the
>  > knower, not the known, and the notion that the Self is
>  the seat of
>  > ignorance is as a result of ignorance and nothing else.
>  This is the clear
>  > view of Shankara and Suresvara”. All will be familiar
>  with Shankara’s
>  > frustratingly evasive responses to the question
>  “whose is avidyā?” at BSB
>  > 4.1.3 and Gita 13.2, where the response is “to
>  whomever is asking the
>  > question”. Equally Suresvara tells us at SV 176
>  nāvidyāsyetyavidyāyām
>  >  evāsitvā prakalpyate; brahmadriṣṭyā
>  tvavidyeyam na kathanchana yujyate
>  > “No, the notion that ignorance has its seat in the
>  absolute and belongs to
>  > it is itself only imagined in ignorance. From the
>  standpoint of Brahman,
>  > ignorance cannot exist in any way”. This should be
>  clear to all: since the
>  > notions of space and time do not apply to Brahman, how
>  can one talk of
>  > something being “in Brahman”? For further details
>  on Sri Swamiji’s views
>  > please consult his comments at VPP section 75, where he
>  discusses Maṇḍana
>  > Mishra’s views on the seat of ignorance, or his
>  comments on Nai Si 3.1 in
>  > kleshāpahāriṇῑ on the same topic. Now you may
>  wonder why Shankara gives
>  > such an elusive answer to the question “whose is
>  avidyā?”. Well it is
>  > because the answers to certain questions in
>  Shankara’s tradition yield no
>  > productive value, and are of the nature of a
>  nirarthakah prashnah, a
>  > valueless question. Why is this? Well it is because one
>  who is afflicted
>  > with ignorance can never know its nature. Suresvara
>  tells as at SV 179
>  > avidyāvān avidyām tām na nirūpayitum kshamah, one
>  endowed with ignorance
>  > can never know its nature. This is the point
>  Vidyasankar makes in his March
>  > 18 post (those of you who are observant will note how
>  he deftly quotes N.S
>  > 3.66, ignorance does not brook enquiry, as it is like
>  searching for dark
>  > with a lamp). Such questions where the answers are
>  valueless are:-
>  > What is the nature of avidyā? Is it positive or
>  negative?-       Whose is
>  > avidyā?-       What causes my
>  confusion?It is sufficient for Shankara,
>  > Gaudapada and Suresvara and their tradition to point
>  out the error so it
>  > can be removed for a qualified aspirant through the
>  shruti texts alone such
>  > as tat tvam asi. To the extent it is helpful, one can
>  at most characterise
>  > one’s ignorance as imagined, of the nature of “I do
>  not know”, established
>  > in our everyday experience through lack of critical
>  reflection. Nothing
>  > more is needed for the sādhaka who is qualified to
>  receive the teachings of
>  > vedānta. This can be frustrating for many, as our
>  nature is to look for the
>  > cause of something, or know what it is and where it
>  came from. We even have
>  > the following statement in the Shri Dakshinamurthy Math
>  Prakashana edition
>  > of Pañchapādikā p xxix (which includes the
>  commentaries vivaraṇam ,
>  > tattva-dῑpana, and rjuvivaraṇam-an excellent
>  reference book for all serious
>  > students of advaita), made by the renowned scholar
>  Panditraja
>  > Shastraratnakara S Subrahmanya Shastri: “It is
>  undeniable that the great
>  > master Sankara did not work out all the implications of
>  his avidyā, for he
>  > was more interested in brahmavāda”. Now many on this
>  list, regardless of
>  > whether they follow vivaraṇa-prasthānam,
>  bhāmati-prasthānam or
>  > bhaṣya-prasthanam of Holenarsipur Swami, will dispute
>  this statement by an
>  > authority on vivaraṇam, and will feel that
>  Shankara’s words as-is are
>  > sufficient to fully explain his tradition. However, it
>  just shows how
>  > strong is the impulse within the tradition to attempt
>  to answer such
>  > questions as the 3 above. I would submit that the
>  simple solution is to
>  > never forget that the ātmavichāra of advaita is the
>  enquiry into Brahman,
>  > not avidyā. When in doubt, strive to understand
>  Brahman, not avidyā.
>  > RegardsSubhanu
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >
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-- 
Regards

-Venkatesh