[Advaita-l] 'world' is not the mental creation of tiny soul !!

[V Subrahmanian]

On Fri, Mar 28, 2014 at 9:02 PM, kuntimaddi sadananda <
kuntimaddisada at yahoo.com> wrote:

>
> Shree Venkatesh Murthy - PraNAms - Sorry if my reply is confusion. My be
> this will help.
>
> The waker's mind with its suppressions and oppressions become a platform
> for the projection of the whole dream world. Hence when you say YOU -  if
> it refers to the waker's mind then the whole projection is within that
> mind. In analogy with the waking world, these impressions form maaya and
> waker's mind enlivened by the consciousness is the Iswara of the creation.Hence similar to the waking world Iswara with maaya Shakti is creating the
> dream world.


Dear Sri Sada ji,

The above highlighted part is not in accordance with the Br.up. 'There (in
the dream) are no chariots, no horses, no paths, etc.. He creates the
chariots, the horses, paths, etc.'  Shankaracharya comments that this
creation of/in the dream is by  the jiva. In the BSB 3.2.5 Shankara refutes
the position that 'the creator (of dream) is the Supreme Conscious Self
(Ishwara)'. [see p.593 bottom of the English trans. of Sw.Gambhirananda.)
Shankara cites a few upanishadic passages to show that the dream is the
creation of the individual self, jiva.  In fact even in the mandukya karika
verse 'abhAvashcha rathAdInAm....' it is the above Br.up. that is alluded
to show that the dream objects, in their entirety, are the jiva's creation.
That the dream is (also) a creation of Ishwara and therefore real, is the
theory of the non-advaitins.   In fact the dream analogy is taken up only
to show that the waking world too is the creation of the jiva alone.  That
is the central message of the entire upanishadic lore and the kArikaa-s in
particular.




> The dream world consists of many beings and non beings. The beings have
> their own BMI. Anupravesha statement applies here also. Iswara as though
> after creating the world with BMIs enters into beings as jiiva. There is
> dreamer subject I who is a tiny soul in the dream, looking at the world not
> created by that tiny BMI.


In fact it is only to remove this misconception the Upanishad is talking
about the dream creation by the jiva.



> The dream world  involves forest and tigers including the one that is
> chasing him for its meals. Now, when you shift your attention to the dream
> and say YOU are running from the tiger we are  now talking about the dream
> creation done by the gobal mind (waker's mind The wakers mind is gobal and
> dreamer mind is local. The creation is at global level and perception of
> the creation and the resulting transaction is at local BMI level. As long
> as the reference states  are clear, there should not be confusion. If one
> says there dreamer you created the tiger and make it to chase him is not
> right. Creation of the dream subject and the tiger and the forest where
> he is running is done by the global mind which is mind of the waker that is
> sleeping.
>
> But have you not said at the beginning that the dream creation is by
Ishwara and not by the jiva?  If you are equating the waker-mind (which you
call 'global mind') to Ishwara, then you are indeed accepting that one
jIva, eka jiva, is the creator of the entire dRShya prapancha of that one
jiva!!!  And the word 'jiva' in the eka-jiva prakriyA is never intended to
be a 'tiny' jiva.  This is the mistake that lies at the base of
misunderstanding and objecting to the eka-jiva prakriyA.  The jiva of the
eka-jiva is just a conscious entity, defined as the only ’sajiva jiva' and
all the other jiva-semblances this one sajiva jiva perceives/cognizes are
'nirjiva jiva-s, like dream jiva-s'.  This only conscious sajiva jiva is
admitted to be the creator/projector of even the concepts like veda,
Ishwara, etc. In other words, the world that any jiva sees, is taken
as-it-is and transferred to the eka jiva as his own creation.  If these
fundamentals of the eka-jiva prakriya are understood, there will be no
objections to it.  In fact Sri SSS is the greatest champion of this
construct as is evidenced from the various quotes provided from his work/s
by Sri Subhanu ji.

I end my contribution to this thread with this final, though repeated,
clarification.



warm regards
subbu



> In essence waker - You is the global and dreamer you is tiny local. the
> BMI and the senses for each are different - hence Manduka provides a
> parallel statement defining the two  -each with 19 gateways to perceive
> their respective external worlds.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Hari Om!
> Sadananda
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Fri, 3/28/14, Venkatesh Murthy <vmurthy36 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>  Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] 'world' is not the mental creation of tiny soul
> !!
>  To: "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta" <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
>  Date: Friday, March 28, 2014, 8:04 AM
>
>  Namaste Sri Sadananda
>
>  I am confused by your reply. If you say dream world of tiny
>  Jeeva is that
>  tiny Jeeva's Srishti but waking world is Ishwara's Srishti
>  there is no
>  logic for supporting this. Many of our Acharyas like
>  Gaudapada have treated
>  dream and waking as name.
>
>
>
>  On Fri, Mar 28, 2014 at 1:25 PM, kuntimaddi sadananda <
>  kuntimaddisada at yahoo.com>
>  wrote:
>
>  > Shree Venkatesh - the inside you vs outside depends on
>  who is that you
>  > that is being referred to. From the point of waker mind
>  which with respect
>  > to creation is the global mind - it is inside. But from
>  the point of a tiny
>  > subject inside the dream, the dream world from Iswara
>  srushti is outside -
>  > and if he has some wrong notions about it those notions
>  that belong to only
>  > the BMI of the tiny jiiva or in his tiny. There is
>  shift if reference when
>  > one is taking about the mind of the waker vs the mind
>  of the tny jiiva
>  > inside the dream. The waker's mind pervades all the
>  chara and achara of the
>  > dream world - it also pervades the other jiivas in the
>  dream including the
>  > mind of the tiger that is chasing the tiny jiiva.
>  Scripture uses the
>  > parallel statement - ekona vimshati mukhaH - there are
>  19 gateways - for
>  > both waker jiiva and dreamer jiiva. For dreamer subject
>  the dream world is
>  > outside his nineteen gates - for him it is
>  vyaavahaarika satyam when he is
>  >  transacting with his world - hence the sloka -
>  sakaale satyavat bhaati
>  > prabhode satyasat bhavet.
>  >
>  > Hari Om!
>  >
>  > Sadananda
>  >
>  > --------------------------------------------
>  > On Fri, 3/28/14, Venkatesh Murthy <vmurthy36 at gmail.com>
>  wrote:
>  >
>  >
>  >  This very important Sloka is appearing in
>  Maanasollaasa by
>  >  Sureshwara
>  >  स्वप्ने
>  स्वान्तगतं
>  >  विश्वं यथा
>  >  पृथगवेक्षते ।
>  >  तथैव
>  जाग्रत्कालेऽपि
>  >  प्रपञ्चोऽयं
>  >  विव्च्यताम् ॥
>  >
>  >  It is saying like the dream objects in the dream
>  are
>  >  appearing outside but
>  >  there are all inside you but not outside.
>  Similarly in
>  >  waking also the
>  >  objects are appearing outside but actually they
>  are inside
>  >  you only. There
>  >  is no difference between dream and waking.
>  >
>  >  If you read Maanasollaasa you will immediately
>  understand
>  >  the Jeeva is
>  >  creating everything in both dream and waking.
>  >
>  >  You believe you are creating dream objects and
>  they are
>  >  inside you but they
>  >  appear outside.  You have to believe you are
>  creating
>  >  waking objects also.
>  >  The waking objects are also in you but you think
>  they are
>  >  outside.
>  >
>  >
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>
>  --
>  Regards
>
>  -Venkatesh
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