[Advaita-l] ***UNCHECKED*** Fwd: Weather Vedas are considered as false in ultimate reality?

[Ravi Kiran]

deep sleep is an experience of moksa (moksa-drstAntabhUtam)

Here, deep sleep experience is reflected upon in jAgrat and hence its
importance for manana

On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 6:06 AM, Harsha Bhat via Advaita-l <
advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:

> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Harsha Bhat <harsha9519 at gmail.com>
> Date: Mon, Aug 3, 2015 at 11:09 PM
> Subject: Re: Weather Vedas are considered as false in ultimate reality?
> To: Siva Senani Nori <sivasenani at yahoo.com>
>
>
> Shiva sir,
>                               Completely understood,but my doubt is,
> according to you moksha is similar to deep sleep state,Samsaara is dreaming
> state...
>
> Then what is waken up state?
> What is compared to waken up state?,
> I have seen many times advaithi's compare waken up state to moksha ,but you
> compare deep sleep state to moksha.
>
> On Mon, Aug 3, 2015 at 6:03 PM, Siva Senani Nori <sivasenani at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Sir
> >
> > Pranam.
> >
> > I never said "vedas are false in ultimately reality of waken up state".
> > As I tried to explain in one of the early posts, this is a mischievous
> way
> > of twisting the views of Advaita with a purpose to show that Advaita is
> > incorrect. We Sraddhaalus should not construct such statements.
> >
> > Kindly consider the phrase "when a man is embraced by prAj~na (the
> > intelligent Self)" and mull over it.
> >
> > The Braahmeesthiti is beyond words (यतो वाचो विवर्तन्ते अप्राप्य मनसा सह)
> > and cannot be described. However all of reach a similar state on a daily
> > basis, that is during deep sleep, where we do not dream. We forget
> > everything in this state ("dead as a log", is how the English put it) -
> yet
> > we resume our activities without skipping a beat. How is this possible?
> > Because the one aspect of Self - called Praajña - is active during this
> > state. In other words, this state is the equivalent of Moksha. The
> > difference is that in Moksha, there is no punaraavritti, but we return
> from
> > this deep sleep state all the time. However the situation while we are in
> > deep sleep is comparable to Moksha.
> >
> > The Upanishad thus describes the state of Moksha, using the state of Deep
> > Sleep. This is the sense of "when a man is embraced by prAj~na (the
> > intelligent Self)". The funny thing about liberation is that it is not
> > obtained in the sense getting what one did not have before (say, like
> > acquiring a fancy car), it only needs to be discovered, like the chain in
> > one's neck that one thought is lost. So, in reality, the AtmA is always
> > Mukta - only we don't understand that. So if is perfectly reasonable that
> > one of our three states is used to describe the state of Moksha.
> >
> > This is also the reason why I quoted BSB 4.1.3 where Bhagavatpada clearly
> > takes the statement "यत्र वेदा अवेदाः" as applying to prabodhasthiti
> > (enlightenment or Moksha). As further proof the sentence from
> > Adhyaasabhaashya "अविद्यावद्विषयाणि प्रत्यक्षादीनि प्रमाणानि शास्त्राणि
> च"
> > also was quoted. The idea is that once one realizes that everything is
> > Brahman (सर्वं खल्विदं ब्रह्म), the one without a second
> (एकमेवाद्वितीयम्),
> > there cannot be a second entity, even Veda. So what happens to Veda? It
> > dissolves into Brahman. What about pramaaNas like pratyaksha
> (perception),
> > inference (anumaana) etc.? These can operate only where there is
> perceiver
> > or knower (pramaataa), and something being perceived or cognized
> (prameya).
> > But no two such entities are there in ultimate reality. Only one entity,
> > Brahman, is there. So when we talk of that state, it is untenable to talk
> > of Pramaataa, Prameyaa etc. separately.
> >
> > Therefore, Veda is only an upaaya to know Brahman. Once Brahman is known
> > Veda is non-different from Brahman and hence अवेदः. At no point does
> > Saastrakrit ever say that Veda is false, only its abhaava - absence (that
> > is not being present in a form and state different from Brahman) - is
> > accepted, that too in prabodha.
> >
> > Regards
> > N. Siva Senani
> >
> > ------------------------------
> > *From:* Harsha Bhat <harsha9519 at gmail.com>
> > *To:* A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta <
> > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>; Sivasenani Nori <
> > sivasenani at yahoo.com>
> > *Sent:* Monday, 3 August 2015 1:39 PM
> > *Subject:* Weather Vedas are considered as false in ultimate reality?
> >
> > Namaste Shiv Sir,
> >
> >                                             In your explanation you said,
> >                                                        ///There the
> > journey of the Self in the states of waking, dreaming, and dreamless
> sleep
> > are expounded. While dealing with the last, the Upanishad teaches that
> when
> > a man is embraced by prAj~na (the intelligent Self), then he does not
> know
> > anything without or within. This state is described in 4.3.22 - “Then a
> > father is not a father, a mother not a mother, the worlds not worlds, the
> > gods not gods, the Vedas not Vedas. Then a thief is not a thief, a
> murderer
> > not a murderer, a Chandala not a Chandala, a Paulkasa not a Paulkasa, a
> > Sramana not a Sramana, a Tapasa not a Tapasa. He is not followed by good,
> > not followed by evil, for he has then overcome all the sorrows of the
> > heart.” (Max Muller's translation) (PaulkaSa is the son of a Sudra father
> > and a Kshatriya mother – i.e. a result of pratiloma marriage; Sramana is
> a
> > mendicant).
> >
> >
> >
> > In dreamless sleep state vedas are aveda...I also accept,But my doubt
> > is,weather mokha is waken up state or dream less sleep state?
> >
> > Now we are in dreaming state (samsara) where there is (little)  knowledge
> > of vedas,When we are in deep sleep ,we are in dream less sleep  state
> > ,where there is no knowledge of vedas....
> >
> > But moksha is considered as waken up state,the vedas says in deep sleep
> > state there is no vedas (as said in vedaha avedhaha matra)...But in
> moksha
> > (Waken up state)...knowledge of vedas should be there.....
> >
> > How do you say vedas are false in ultimately reality of waken up
> state.....
> >
> > In dream less sleep state knowledge of vedas may not be there ,but in
> > moksha which is waken up state ,the knowledge of vedas should be there
> no?..
> >
> > As when we wake up from deep sleep we have knowledge of vedas back,which
> > was not there in deep sleep state....
> >
> > regards,
> > Harsha Bhat
> >
> >
> >
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