[Advaita-l] Weather Vedas are considered as false in ultimate reality?

[Harsha Bhat]

Ok Sir,
                          I will not mix up the two metaphors,now let us
take the seeing snake in rope example....
When we come to know that it is rope not snake,the snake and hence afraid
because of snake gets remove,,,I accept that....

But the knowledge of rope is realized right ?because of which miss
understanding of snake in rope gets removed right?

So,there should be the knowledge of rope then after .....

Similarly after brahma jgnana (Athma jagrathavasta)...there should be the
knowledge of self after moksha....So,moksha should be waken up state (Athma
jagrathavasta)....after moksha not deep sleep state..where there is no
knowledge of self...

Another thing is ,you compare deep sleep state to moksha,dreaming state to
samsara(jagath)....

Similarly...to which state you compare to waken up state?...is it samsara
or moksha?..or waken up state doen't exist at all??

On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 7:58 PM, Siva Senani Nori <sivasenani at yahoo.com>
wrote:

> Sir
>
> In English, they say that we should not mix metaphors. In our language, we
> should caution that we should not take drishTAntas, (examples), upamaanas
> (comparisons) etc. literally. If an example or upamaana were completely
> identical to a given situation then it would cease to be an example or an
> upamaana.
>
> For instance in the context of Indian batsmen, a 6 footer might be
> considered tall and we might say things like "it is easy for tall batsmen
> to play spinners due to their reach". Now in NBA a 6 footer is not
> considered tall and we need to say something like "it shows his exceptional
> talent that notwithstanding his lack of height he was so successful in
> NBA." Now if a same person X were to play both games, he is "tall" in one
> situation and "lacks height" in the other situation.
>
> In the present case you are mixing examples. The particular context of the
> Upanishad treats the state of deep sleep as similar to the state of Moksha
> and we should not mix it with other examples - Vaidika or otherwise - and
> get confused.
>
> Regards
> N. Siva Senani
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Harsha Bhat <harsha9519 at gmail.com>
> *To:* A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>; Sivasenani Nori <
> sivasenani at yahoo.com>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, 4 August 2015 6:14 AM
>
> *Subject:* Re: Weather Vedas are considered as false in ultimate reality?
>
> For example,
>
> while explaining dreaming state ,advaithis explain it as when we wake up
> dream become false,similarly when we get brahma jgnana (moksha)...this
> jagath is false.....
>
> Here moksha is compared to waken up state no?...(not compared to deep
> sleep state ,as when we go to deep sleep state dream become false...which
> is quite meaning less)...
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 6:06 AM, Harsha Bhat <harsha9519 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: *Harsha Bhat* <harsha9519 at gmail.com>
> Date: Mon, Aug 3, 2015 at 11:09 PM
> Subject: Re: Weather Vedas are considered as false in ultimate reality?
> To: Siva Senani Nori <sivasenani at yahoo.com>
>
>
> Shiva sir,
>                               Completely understood,but my doubt is,
> according to you moksha is similar to deep sleep state,Samsaara is dreaming
> state...
>
> Then what is waken up state?
> What is compared to waken up state?,
> I have seen many times advaithi's compare waken up state to moksha ,but
> you compare deep sleep state to moksha.
>
> On Mon, Aug 3, 2015 at 6:03 PM, Siva Senani Nori <sivasenani at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> Sir
>
> Pranam.
>
> I never said "vedas are false in ultimately reality of waken up state".
> As I tried to explain in one of the early posts, this is a mischievous way
> of twisting the views of Advaita with a purpose to show that Advaita is
> incorrect. We Sraddhaalus should not construct such statements.
>
> Kindly consider the phrase "when a man is embraced by prAj~na (the
> intelligent Self)" and mull over it.
>
> The Braahmeesthiti is beyond words (यतो वाचो विवर्तन्ते अप्राप्य मनसा सह)
> and cannot be described. However all of reach a similar state on a daily
> basis, that is during deep sleep, where we do not dream. We forget
> everything in this state ("dead as a log", is how the English put it) - yet
> we resume our activities without skipping a beat. How is this possible?
> Because the one aspect of Self - called Praajña - is active during this
> state. In other words, this state is the equivalent of Moksha. The
> difference is that in Moksha, there is no punaraavritti, but we return from
> this deep sleep state all the time. However the situation while we are in
> deep sleep is comparable to Moksha.
>
> The Upanishad thus describes the state of Moksha, using the state of Deep
> Sleep. This is the sense of "when a man is embraced by prAj~na (the
> intelligent Self)". The funny thing about liberation is that it is not
> obtained in the sense getting what one did not have before (say, like
> acquiring a fancy car), it only needs to be discovered, like the chain in
> one's neck that one thought is lost. So, in reality, the AtmA is always
> Mukta - only we don't understand that. So if is perfectly reasonable that
> one of our three states is used to describe the state of Moksha.
>
> This is also the reason why I quoted BSB 4.1.3 where Bhagavatpada clearly
> takes the statement "यत्र वेदा अवेदाः" as applying to prabodhasthiti
> (enlightenment or Moksha). As further proof the sentence from
> Adhyaasabhaashya "अविद्यावद्विषयाणि प्रत्यक्षादीनि प्रमाणानि शास्त्राणि च"
> also was quoted. The idea is that once one realizes that everything is
> Brahman (सर्वं खल्विदं ब्रह्म), the one without a second (एकमेवाद्वितीयम्),
> there cannot be a second entity, even Veda. So what happens to Veda? It
> dissolves into Brahman. What about pramaaNas like pratyaksha (perception),
> inference (anumaana) etc.? These can operate only where there is perceiver
> or knower (pramaataa), and something being perceived or cognized (prameya).
> But no two such entities are there in ultimate reality. Only one entity,
> Brahman, is there. So when we talk of that state, it is untenable to talk
> of Pramaataa, Prameyaa etc. separately.
>
> Therefore, Veda is only an upaaya to know Brahman. Once Brahman is known
> Veda is non-different from Brahman and hence अवेदः. At no point does
> Saastrakrit ever say that Veda is false, only its abhaava - absence (that
> is not being present in a form and state different from Brahman) - is
> accepted, that too in prabodha.
>
> Regards
> N. Siva Senani
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Harsha Bhat <harsha9519 at gmail.com>
> *To:* A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>; Sivasenani Nori <
> sivasenani at yahoo.com>
> *Sent:* Monday, 3 August 2015 1:39 PM
> *Subject:* Weather Vedas are considered as false in ultimate reality?
>
> Namaste Shiv Sir,
>
>                                             In your explanation you said,
>                                                        ///There the
> journey of the Self in the states of waking, dreaming, and dreamless sleep
> are expounded. While dealing with the last, the Upanishad teaches that when
> a man is embraced by prAj~na (the intelligent Self), then he does not know
> anything without or within. This state is described in 4.3.22 - “Then a
> father is not a father, a mother not a mother, the worlds not worlds, the
> gods not gods, the Vedas not Vedas. Then a thief is not a thief, a murderer
> not a murderer, a Chandala not a Chandala, a Paulkasa not a Paulkasa, a
> Sramana not a Sramana, a Tapasa not a Tapasa. He is not followed by good,
> not followed by evil, for he has then overcome all the sorrows of the
> heart.” (Max Muller's translation) (PaulkaSa is the son of a Sudra father
> and a Kshatriya mother – i.e. a result of pratiloma marriage; Sramana is a
> mendicant).
>
>
>
> In dreamless sleep state vedas are aveda...I also accept,But my doubt
> is,weather mokha is waken up state or dream less sleep state?
>
> Now we are in dreaming state (samsara) where there is (little)  knowledge
> of vedas,When we are in deep sleep ,we are in dream less sleep  state
> ,where there is no knowledge of vedas....
>
> But moksha is considered as waken up state,the vedas says in deep sleep
> state there is no vedas (as said in vedaha avedhaha matra)...But in moksha
> (Waken up state)...knowledge of vedas should be there.....
>
> How do you say vedas are false in ultimately reality of waken up state.....
>
> In dream less sleep state knowledge of vedas may not be there ,but in
> moksha which is waken up state ,the knowledge of vedas should be there no?..
>
> As when we wake up from deep sleep we have knowledge of vedas back,which
> was not there in deep sleep state....
>
> regards,
> Harsha Bhat
>
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